Leader - Success!!!!

[sheri]

What an amazing trip!


We saw the first rattler 15 minutes within arriving in Leader, SK.
What an amazing animal - feisty and beautiful, what more could you want?





We were a little concerned that we would have difficulty locating them - we had contacted several of the local herpers but had no response. The conservation officers there, however, are really awesome and helpful. The locals are amazing! Our second snake was actually one that was caught by a local rancher on his property - we found him just as he was leving to go release it! It was so cool to see such a positive attitude about the snakes from the people that work on the land. Very encouraging for the future of the species.



There were several others, a total of 12 including the rancher's find. We also travelled to the grasslands park and were very successful there! It was amazing to find them so far east.

Most have dispersed from the dens now, which is to be expected for this time of year and especially given the early heat this year but they are certainly findable - and what a rush it is when you do!



We were really really lucky - finding den sites is not easy but we will have several to visit this fall when they return!

It was also cool to see the western widow, Latrodectus hesperus making use of the den sites after the rattlers had vacated;


Lelle will post some more tomorrow, as will I - we just returned a few hours ago after about 5000 kilometers of driving in 7 days!

Oh - and finally after 18 long years of searching... I saw a badger!!! This was not just any sighting. This was observing it from a few meters away for about 20 minutes. Digging it's den, checking us out, shaking off the dirt from it's coat and wandering around. It was incredible - I can hardly explain how excited I was. At least now I have proof that they really *do* exist.



Next time... a cougar.

[joeysgreen]

wow, I'm happy your trip was a success I've yet to make to it Leader, and I'm really wondering why!

Ian

[kaley]

sheri said:

We were a little concerned that we would have difficulty locating them - we had contacted several of the local herpers but had no response. The conservation officers there, however, are really awesome and helpful. The locals are amazing! Our second snake was actually one that was caught by a local rancher on his property - we found him just as he was leving to go release it! It was so cool to see such a positive attitude about the snakes from the people that work on the land. Very encouraging for the future of the species.

OK, I realize that it may not be my place to comment here, but this post has been irking me since I read it.

First, was that an intentional shot at the local herpers?? Maybe everyone was just busy, or just doesn't have time to be a tour guide for everyone who want to go look at snakes?? Hopefully you were not intending to be rude.

Second, one of the reasons that HISS hosts twice yearly snake counts is, at least in my opinion (someone please feel free to correct me if I'm off the mark here), to protect the herpers, snakes and the good relationship that herpers have with the area landowners by somewhat restricting the frequency of people out with the snakes....

The snake counts are organized and have rules and supervision - helping to ensure that all the snakes are safe from herpers, and the herpers are safe from snakes...Even in this supervised and knowledgable environment I have seen people free handling rattlers, and undully stressing snakes of all kinds...NOT smart - someone will get hurt at some point, and the snakes will surely suffer from the stress...

If the folks around Leader take everyone and their dog out "hunting" rattlers everytime someone wants to go, the situation there will rapidly degrade from one where the snakes are observed intensely, in an organized fashion, twice a year, into a general free for all where everyone from 4 provinces is out harrassing the snakes whenever they feel like it.

I realize that this is a free country and all, but if you read SK's wildlife regs carefully, harassing wildlife (including rattlers) by chasing, handling, even photographing, can be considered hunting, and therefore the C.O.s could charge herpers with poaching IF they felt the need to....Restricting the activity around the dens somewhat is what keeps herpers' relationships with the land owners and C.O.s a good one...If the area turns into a big free for all, at some point something will happen that damages that relationship - someone will inadvertently leave farmer's gate open and all his cows will escape, or someone will get bitten by a rattler or spider, or fall down a gulley and break their leg or something...and then the C.O.s might rethink their policy of being nice to the herpers...

I have no idea if your lack of a "tour guide" was an intentional attempt to restrict access to the snakes, or if everyone was just not available - But I think that this is an interesting issue none the less. I appolgize for my big rant but I really think that is important, and I am really interested in hearing other's opinions...

Also, please don't take this as a personal attack Sheri - it's just that your post touched a nerve with me, and I think that we (the list) should have a discussion about the rights of herpers to go field herping vs. the need for safety and the right of the snakes to be free from harassment.

Kaley

[sheri]

Actually, I am pretty sure it is *not* a herp society's mission to regulate who visits their region. I think that's a job for Canada Customs, really. It is, however, their choice whom they choose to go herping with.

Secondly, of course, when you drive 14 hours with a specific goal in mind, it is reassuring to know that someone you have had previous positive contact with would be interested in sharing some of their natural beauty of their province with you - and a shared passion and interest. There are few in this hobby and fewer still of those that enjoy being in the field. It is always a pleasure and great fun to meet others with the same interest.

We did fine on our own. Just as we did in Peru, other parts of Canada, Sweden and in Arizona. Strangely, no one seemed concerned about harassing the wildlife, even in Arizona, where they are known to be almost rabid towards those they see as a threat to their natural resources. In Arizona, we did spend a couple of the days with local herpers - and it was a blast.

Also, please take note that we contacted both of the conservation officers in your town. We also went to the office and introduced ourselves, shared what we had found and contacted them after our return with some new locale information. People intent on disturbing, harassing, harming or otherwise disrespectful behaviour don't generally try and alert the authorities first.

That law exists so that they can prosecute those that actually (like in real life) harming the snakes. I agree with it, but I have also seen the practical use of it - it is used at the authorities discretion. They are reasonable people and I have yet to see any evidence that would suggest the contrary.
We have never travelled aywhere yet that has seen local authorities misintrepret our interest as something that would be harmful to the animals. We photograph, yes, but that is not hidden from anyone and we never risk the animals or ourselves in an effort to get "that perfect shot".

We spend hours, in Manitoba and everywhere else out herping and mammaling. Hiking, and enjoying nature. Our pointed interest may lie with reptiles and arachnids but to try and equate our well planned and intentioned trip as something that might be negative for "your" snakes is bizarre and devoid of logic.

I wonder if Grasslands National Park has the same musings you do? Of course, when one enters onto private property, they must first ask permission before doing so - this is an unwritten common sense rule.

If you think you have a problem with such a high number of destructive herpers invading your towns to freehandle rattlers, I would suggest you take it up with the conservation department. In terms of your counts, of course this is a good idea and excellent that you are involved in the conservation of the species. But not everyone can make these counting events - and not everyone would want to.

The last I heard, driving down roads while abiding the local laws was...

legal.

Which is where (as you know) most of the snakes are spotted.

I suppose, though, leaving one right in the middle it for future roadkill tracking is a better alternative than using hooks or tongs to move it to the side of the road?

If you have an issue with herpers, I don't think these are the two you might want to launch your campaign from. We were really happy with everything and everyone that we met while we were there - my comment about not hearing back from the locals was more one that arose from confusion rather than an attempt to be rude.

Of course, people have asked us to take them out, and we are happy to, when time allows. Life is life. But we certainly do respond to them, give them tips, and wish them luck. We're pretty busy people - but not so busy as to not offer that.

If there were specific concerns that anyone had with regard to us coming to see the animals, then it would have been nice to have had the opportunity to address them directly before we left.

We are always available, should anyone choose to engage us in discussion via pm, email, phone, or instant messaging.

Happy Herping!

Sheri and Lelle

[kaley]

First - I don't live in Leader...

Second - I specifically asked you NOT to take my post as any kind of personal attack...

Third - I also specifically stated that the purpose of my post was to drum up a dicussion about the topic...

Way to blow things WAY outta proportion! Thanks for the enjoyable and logical discussion.

Kaley

[sheri]

The topic being our herp trip in Leader? Or regulating who gets to see the snakes?

I'm confused.

And I didn't take your post personally - I just addressed the specific issues you brought up. Honestly. I am not sure how I could have made it seem more neutral.

[kaley]

I didn't specifically address any aspect of your trip, or say that you did or didn't do anything in particular- except that I wanted to make sure that you weren't being intentionally rude to the "locals"

...and yet the vast majority of your post was specifically addressing your actions on your trip, and defending your field herping practices...along with a few not so subtle shots ridiculing my personal opinion about the matter...

I was simply trying to drum up discussion about "regulating" (if you want to call it that) the visits to the rattler areas. Therefore, your comment about a "herp society's mission" is more what I was after...Although it was really more of an accusatory response rather than a discussion...but at least along the right lines...

For the record - I fully expect no one else to agree with me on this particular topic (which maybe we should move to another thread? So that no thinks they are being accused of anything?) We all may have noticed by now that I may be a little more willing than most to accept restrictions in order to protect the greater good...and that I'm also a little more prone to disagreeing with people than most...But I do respect and value other's opinions - even when they are different than my own.

Kaley

[huggorm]

Kaley,

if you wanted to discuss that and not our trip you should have posted in a thread of its own.
As I see it your post was clearly personal against us beeing there.

/Lelle

[kaley]

huggorm said:

Kaley,

if you wanted to discuss that and not our trip you should have posted in a thread of its own.
As I see it your post was clearly personal against us beeing there.

/Lelle

Fair enough - Have the thread topic police issue me a fine - or smite me, or dish out whatever punishment is fitting for such a crime.

I thought this statement...

Also, please don't take this as a personal attack Sheri - it's just that your post touched a nerve with me, and I think that we (the list) should have a discussion about the rights of herpers to go field herping vs. the need for safety and the right of the snakes to be free from harassment.
Kaley

...would serve as fair warning that I was not personally attacking anyone, as well as a clear statement of the particular discussion I was inviting.

Sorry it wasn't clear.

Kaley

[huggorm]

What nerve did the initial post touch? That outsiders are not welcome to see your wildlife?
Sorry, but it is kind of hilarious.

[Ryan Wunsch]

Lelle and Sheri:

Your original comment that started all of this came off as a jab, and obviously irritated a few people. Was that not meant as a jab? Why should it not be replied to in the thread it was said in? I don't get your logic, things don't work both ways.

Now from Ryan Wunsch who has nothing to do with this forum or directorship of HISS.

I'll reply to your email accusing 3 of us locals of accusing you of planning to collect rattlesnakes, after I've had the chance to talk to the other 2 people you sent it to.

Both of you seem to like to tell others what to do, expect they should live by your words, but at the same time you don't seem to listen to others comments. I've seen this before, and it is pretty clear in this post again.

You both really get on my nerves.

I saw you mention getting permission to go onto land at Grasslands, well the snake habitat around here is on private land, I sure hope you got permission to go onto it. A few of those ranchers don't like tresspassers, and one year one of them did not give HISS permission to go onto his land because of the numbers of people who were freely going on it.

I got your email late, I knew you had been in discussion with 2 other Leader people for a long time so didn't think you needed any help from me anyways, you had never contacted me until just recenlty about coming out herping. I think I probably did mention my gut feelings about you being too "hands on", or possibly even taking something back to one or both of the other people you emailed.

It seems like you expect people to give you tours. I rarely take anyone out on tours any more, as there have been a few problems and potential for incidents stemming from times when I did take people out.

Ryan

[Ryan Wunsch]

Oh yeah, and thanks for joining the forum Lelle. You are encouraged to post an introduction of yourself, and join HISS.

Ryan

[huggorm]

admin said:

Lelle and Sheri:

Your original comment that started all of this came off as a jab, and obviously irritated a few people. Was that not meant as a jab? Why should it not be replied to in the thread it was said in? I don't get your logic, things don't work both ways.

Now from Ryan Wunsch who has nothing to do with this forum or directorship of HISS.

I'll reply to your email accusing 3 of us locals of accusing you of planning to collect rattlesnakes, after I've had the chance to talk to the other 2 people you sent it to.

Both of you seem to like to tell others what to do, expect they should live by your words, but at the same time you don't seem to listen to others comments. I've seen this before, and it is pretty clear in this post again.

You both really get on my nerves.

I saw you mention getting permission to go onto land at Grasslands, well the snake habitat around here is on private land, I sure hope you got permission to go onto it. A few of those ranchers don't like tresspassers, and one year one of them did not give HISS permission to go onto his land because of the numbers of people who were freely going on it.

I got your email late, I knew you had been in discussion with 2 other Leader people for a long time so didn't think you needed any help from me anyways, you had never contacted me until just recenlty about coming out herping. I think I probably did mention my gut feelings about you being too "hands on", or possibly even taking something back to one or both of the other people you emailed.

It seems like you expect people to give you tours. I rarely take anyone out on tours any more, as there have been a few problems and potential for incidents stemming from times when I did take people out.

Ryan

I dont expect people to do anything but I expect people not to talk shit about me behind my back.

"I think I probably did mention my gut feelings about you being too "hands on", or possibly even taking something back to one or both of the other people you emailed."

Where would you get that gut feeling from? I never ever mentioned collecting anything as the email to you and the other two clearly stated.

And yes we had persmission to go on private land. I think we pointed that out clearly too.

Who have I told what to do? Your comments about us is childish since i never talked to you or met you.
To not liking someone is ok, to accuse them of collecting illegally is another thing. I would think twice before saying things like that. I think the term is slander right?


/Lelle

[huggorm]

admin said:

Oh yeah, and thanks for joining the forum Lelle. You are encouraged to post an introduction of yourself, and join HISS.

Ryan

You gotta be kidding right.

[Ryan Wunsch]

I would think twice before saying things like that. I think the term is slander right?

You've got to be kidding!

Ryan

[Ryan Wunsch]

Where would you get that gut feeling from?

About the handling, maybe things like this.



Disturbing and "handling" mating snakes that seem to be pretty rare.

Ryan

[huggorm]

admin said:

Where would you get that gut feeling from?

About the handling, maybe things like this.

Disturbing and "handling" mating snakes that seem to be pretty rare.

Ryan

When I approached them a few inches from my foot they darted off so i picked two up.
After taken a few shots i let them go, and the minute after they were back in courting. So im sure i didnt disturbed them too much.

So, you got a "gut feeling" i would collect because of this picture?
You gotta be kidding.

[sheri]

Wow, Ryan. You've totally lost it.

First, bottom line was we wanted to come and photograph the snakes because we love the animals. It's a thrill to see them in their native habitat - especially in Canada.

Therefore we contacted everyone we thought might have an interest in sharing that, yourself included.

Do you really, really think that if we wanted to collect we'd be announcing our intent to see them? And asking if people were interested in taking us out? Like, really? For real?

And - if by some failure of logic I can't even comprehend you really believed this - why on earth wouldn't you have contacted us to ensure that we weren't? Because you were so deeply concerned you'd just rather stay silent? Because no response at all would ensure the snake's safety that you were so focused on?

In my initial post, I clearly stated that we had permission to go on private land - which we did. We were totally open and honest about why we were there, and what we were doing. And because of that, people were more than helpful, friendly and encouraging. Your locals are proud of the snakes, of the town, and of the land. And I totally respect that - it made me feel confident that your snakes are going to be well preserved for generations that will enjoy them.

I don't know how to make it more simple than this Ryan. We were hoping to have a great herping trip, and initially had hoped that going in the field with locals that could show and teach us a lot would enrich the trip that much more.

That's all it was ever about.

Of course, it is understandable that you (or others) don't want to take people out - fine. But there is an enormous difference between declining to take someone out and saying that you feel they might be collecting illegally without giving the aforementioned parties an opportunity to hear those same thoughts or to respond. It is unethical - and certainly not the behaviour I would expect from someone in charge of the local Herp society.

As for Lelle and his "handling" - I'll let him deal with the absolute ridiculousness of your post.

I find it regrettable that there will now be such a great divide between ourselves and the society. This is such a small, small hobby and it's a shame that these petty incidents have to crop up. We look forward to returning to Leader and area every spring and fall. It sure would have been nice to have made some friends to visit at the same time that share a common interest. Sadly, we were never allowed the opportunity as a result of phantom "gut feelings" that more likely arose out of previous discussions/disagreements on the various forums.

[Ryan Wunsch]

No, I got my gut feeling from my gut, and right or wrong I've learned to just follow my gut feelings.

If you can lay slander charges on gut feelings, be my guest.

I'm curious to know what you heard was said and by whome, you did accuse me of slander, I think you should come clean with what you heard.

Ryan

[Tim Cranwill]

I find a few things a little peculiar here... not that I really want to get involved. But I am only so passive at the best of times.

a) You guys (Sheri and Lelle) have little to no involvement with the MHS beyond posting your field pics and "setting people straight" according to your "rules" on captive husbandry. But yet you feel you are entitled to a guided tour at your whim??? Very bold. Maybe if you had become a contributing member of the HISS forum and made a few friends, you would have gotten the reception you feel entitled to.... but maybe I am way out to lunch here.

b) You can really say people have no reason to see you two (Sheri and Lelle) as something other than responsible field herpers?!?!? Seriously? I know I replied with a fairly positive reply to your Hognose thread HERE but that was me talking as the polite/diplomatic president of MHS, not showing my own personal opinion - which here I have the luxury of expressing. I feel that disturbing and handling mating snakes, more so ones that don’t mate en masse such as Garters, is a terribly inappropriate act and something I highly disagree with. That alone would make me very weary of taking field trips with you two or even divulging locale info as it seems some locals may have been.... though I should not speak for them. None of us like other’s words in our mouths, right?

All in all, you two don’t go out of your way to befriend anyone in this community and even come off fairly arrogant at times and still feel you should command some high level of respect? I think the problem here lies directly within that exact issue right there. Maybe it’s something you need to look at. The people I know in this community are quite surprisingly welcoming of most-all enthusiasts. Hopefully one day you can find yourselves in that company.

Sincere best wishes in your hobby,
Tim Cranwill

[huggorm]

admin said:

No, I got my gut feeling from my gut, and right or wrong I've learned to just follow my gut feelings.

If you can lay slander charges on gut feelings, be my guest.

I'm curious to know what you heard was said and by whome, you did accuse me of slander, I think you should come clean with what you heard.

Ryan

I wont hang someone out in public. And no i havent layed any charges and it wouldnt be because you had gut feelings - its because you wrongly told someone that you thought i would collect. You really should think twice before accusing anyone especially as a president of a herp society.

[sheri]

Oh, gut feelings that you do nothing at all to qualify or dismiss?

Why not have just asked us, honestly? Wouldn't a phone conversation do a lot more to either set your mind at ease or confirm your suspicions? If I thought someone had that intent when they were coming to my hometown to see my protected animals, I would make some sort of attempt to find out and educate them. But you did nothing. Except of course, to tell others what you thought. Very effective technique indeed!

And yeah, it is a sort of slander to someone's reputation to say that you suspect they will be participating in an illegal activity without any proof, or even any evidence that might suggest as much - without giving the people a chance to respond.

Regardless, it is of tremendously poor character and the mark of a coward.

admin said:

No, I got my gut feeling from my gut, and right or wrong I've learned to just follow my gut feelings.

If you can lay slander charges on gut feelings, be my guest.

I'm curious to know what you heard was said and by whome, you did accuse me of slander, I think you should come clean with what you heard.

Ryan

[huggorm]

cranwill said:

a) You guys (Sheri and Lelle) have little to no involvement with the MHS beyond posting your field pics and "setting people straight" according to your "rules" on captive husbandry. But yet you feel you are entitled to a guided tour at your whim??? Very bold. Maybe if you had become a contributing member of the HISS forum and made a few friends, you would have gotten the reception you feel entitled to.... but maybe I am way out to lunch here.

b) You can really say people have no reason to see you two (Sheri and Lelle) as something other than responsible field herpers?!?!? Seriously? I know I replied with a fairly positive reply to your Hognose thread HERE but that was me talking as the polite/diplomatic president of MHS, not showing my own personal opinion - which here I have the luxury of expressing. I feel that disturbing and handling mating snakes, more so ones that don’t mate en masse such as Garters, is a terribly inappropriate act and something I highly disagree with. That alone would make me very weary of taking field trips with you two or even divulging locale info as it seems some locals may have been.... though I should not speak for them. None of us like other’s words in our mouths, right?

All in all, you two don’t go out of your way to befriend anyone in this community and even come off fairly arrogant at times and still feel you should command some high level of respect? I think the problem here lies directly within that exact issue right there. Maybe it’s something you need to look at. The people I know in this community are quite surprisingly welcoming of most-all enthusiasts. Hopefully one day you can find yourselves in that company.

Sincere best wishes in your hobby,
Tim Cranwill

a. Fieldherping is my hobby so I guess field pix is what i post.... Setting people straight? Well if i feel someone posting somethiong i dont agree with, i post my view on the subject. Isnt that what a forum is about? Im not "entitled" on tour - we were simply asking for help. A bad thing it seems!

b. Again, they were darting off and i didnt see them courting until after i had realeased them again. If they were mating as i approached them I would not have picked them up.

[Tim Cranwill]

a) You don't go to MHS meetings or outings.
b) You don't post besides to show your own pics or to correct people.. not even "nice snakes!" posts.
c) You don't contribute to the society besides to tell me how things "should be done", i.e. the pet store issue.
d) You make no bones about openly criticizing people’s husbandry or opinions, yet cry a 10 paragraph river if anyone makes a criticism of your practices.

Just some facts I have noticed.

And if telling people your gut feelings about someone could be called slander, Michael Jackson would be suing the entire western world. Don't try to look so serious when you're obviously joking.

[sheri]

Tim,

Why have you not expressed those feelings before then?

I have attended one meeting, and hosted an informal get together for the Manitoba society.

In addition, we communicate with several of our members on a regular basis - it doesn't matter who says what on issues - that is why they are up for discussion.

We never once thought we were entitled to a tour Tim - not once. If you had some awesome species of herp or invert that lived practically in your backyard and we were coming to the area to see them, of course we would contact you too, it's a no-brainer.

We have several times commented on people's photos, I made a long and well-thought out post as to how to attract new members. I submitted ideas for how we could work with the local government in terms of skink and hognose sightings.

If you cannot handle a little disagreement on a forum than you shouldn't be running one.
You have a new forum, and not everything can be nice all the time. Part of a community is heated debate and discussion - but it is never personal. Including comments about pet stores - which seem almost forbidden on our forum, despite the horrible conditions we *all* see the animals on occasion. Strange, no?

After some time, when it became clear that discussion was not really welcomed unless everyone agreed 100%, I lost some interest in the society, true. But we also continued to enjoy interacting with those that seemed less... borglike. And that has been great and appreciated.

Honestly Tim, I'm pretty shocked. I mean, I knew we had much different viewpoints of different topics (like animal whispering), but this was sort of a blow I did not anticipate. We have never given anyone any reason to believe that we would harm or otherwise disturb any animal.

If in the future, you have serious concerns about anyone out in the field, do the grown up thing and talk to them about it. Most issues are almost immediately resolved with a real-time conversation. It may be uncomfortable initially... but it certainly makes things like this avoidable.

Sheri

[sheri]

Tim,

Search my posts, the ones you clearly ignored, I have commented several times that you have clearly not seen.

Besides, I didn't know that there was an obligatory "nice snake" required on all posts? When I see something I like, I comment on it. Like some of the pics from your last group outing.

As for attending meetings, I already adressed that. Why didn't you come to the event we hosted? When we held it, I assumed you couldn't, or didn't feel like it - whatever. We all have kids, jobs and other committments. By nature, Lelle and I are not the large group social type and prefer smaller gatherings. This does not at all reflect any illwishes for the society!!!

I mean... if I liked junior high so much, I'd go hang out at one. A herp society, the last time I checked, is not a junior high school. A herp society is supposed to be a professional organization. Like all others, they recognize that not everyone has time to attend every meeting. More so, it aids the group to attend the ones you can conribute to or have an interest in.


This is quite honestly, bizarre and surreal. I mean... are you really taking yourself seriously here?

[Tim Cranwill]

I can and do handle and address many differing opinions offered by all sorts of people. I just felt it was time to "set YOU guys straight" for once.

I make my decisions along with the BOD for the benefit of the entire community. We have a process in place to deal with shops. We are starting from the ground up - education of staff. It will be a long road but one with a destination, unlike calling shops out and starting a war which pretty much makes everyone look like a loser. And in a hobby like this, we need to look as little like losers as we can. Agree?

If you want to voice your opinions and have some control, you should have volunteered for the BOD instead of just jeering from the sidelines (behind your PC). Your opinions are valid but the opinions of active members will be considered first.


P.S. On the night of your get together, my wife was working nights. I could not get a baby sitter and a ride. I am sorry I missed it.

[sheri]

Yeah but do you see my point? A forum is about information exchange. If someone is looking after a T that will be detrimental to it's health, would you prefer I say nothing but "Nice T!" and that's it?

A society is an organization that promotes the hobby while protecting it. I thought I was an active member. I keep in close contact with the MB govt, I post on the forum and attend meetings that interest me. I share information, and I even post "nice pics" when... get this... I think they're nice and I happen to have seen them.

If being active means coming to every meeting, all the time, then I am afraid you will have very few active members.

There is no need to make war with pet stores by stating honest opinions about the husbandry - that is what a herp society does, it makes things better for the animals it cares so much about. Only with pressure (positive) from the market will a retailer adapt. Having the local herp society kiss their ass all the time because they need to offload breeding stock to them does nothing except promote individual needs and totally defeats the purpose of the society in the first place.

If you want a club where the secret password is "nice snake" than build a treehouse and put up a sign that says "No real discussion allowed". That is not the kind of society we feel is beneficial for the hobby or for the animals.

I am saddened that you were unable to share your thoughts with us before this.

Take care and happy herping!

Sheri and Lelle

[Tim Cranwill]

You guys are unreal. It's no wonder you have so few "Fans" in this hobby. I am actually glad you aren't more active with the MHS. I knew you were a headache waiting to happen.

Man, oh, man...

By "nice snake" posts, I meant generally contributing to the society and possibly encouraging and promoting the sides of the hobby that might not be your cup of tea. By only replying to your interests, you are simply showing how selfish your hobby really is. It’s pretty pathetic, really.

We have many consistently active members. I like to call them the heart and soul of the society. You guys seem more like an odd colored freckle.. and one that might be changing shape! Yikes!

[Tim Cranwill]

Oh, and I don't need to wholesale my stock. I am sold out months before I have new babies. If I never sold a herp to a store again, I would be just fine.

But then again, I have a lot of friends in the this hobby and have EARNED some respect.

If I do, however, sell to shops, that is my business. I make those decisions with my gut. If I feel good about the deal or shop, I sell. If I don't, I don't.