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Post by huggorm on May 29, 2006 22:30:02 GMT -5
You guys are unreal. It's no wonder you have so few "Fans" in this hobby. I am actually glad you aren't more active with the MHS. I knew you were a headache waiting to happen. Man, oh, man... By "nice snake" posts, I meant generally contributing to the society and possibly encouraging and promoting the sides of the hobby that might not be your cup of tea. By only replying to your interests, you are simply showing how selfish your hobby really is. It’s pretty pathetic, really. We have many consistently active members. I like to call them the heart and soul of the society. You guys seem more like an odd colored freckle.. and one that might be changing shape! Yikes! Im a member of a swedish herp society that started in the late 60'ies and i can tell you this: we have no obligatory attendence to the meetings. Its a democracy and the members participate when they feel like it. Dont you think its odd of you to demand that? Why would i be forced to reply to subjects that are out of my particular interest? This feels more like a cult then a herp society. /Lelle
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Tim Cranwill
Active Member
MHS founder / President
MHS Representative
Posts: 55
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Post by Tim Cranwill on May 29, 2006 22:31:53 GMT -5
I don't demand anything from you or anyone else. I merely pointed out how unactive you two are in the MHS. That is a fact. I am not crying about that. Trust me.
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Post by Ryan Wunsch on May 29, 2006 22:31:58 GMT -5
Why don't you start by asking yourslef some of the questions you ask other. Look above for a good place to start.
I'm sure I'm not the only one who doesn't feel ike becoming friends with either of you.
I personally find both of you very abraisive, bold, forward, assuming, arrogant, instigating, and ones to put words in people mouths, while demanding proof about things people say.
You are very good at flipping the discussion to put heat on others, while ignoring things brought up about you.
You keep accusing me of telling people my gut feelings about your likely hood to collect, when all I think I ever might have said, in confidentiality to one other person in Leader is "I just sure hope they don't want to collect something".
Who told you what exactly? This is not the first time I asked. I was polite enough to offer up something I thought I might have said, I could have ignored the question.
If you don't like the forum(s), and want to always complain or debate things in an instigative way, you don't need to feel that you have to participate.
I think I am done with this for tonight, before I get really pissed off and say something I might regret.
Sorry to all those reading who would rather not have this kind of discussion ongoing, my bad...
Ryan
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Post by huggorm on May 29, 2006 22:35:09 GMT -5
I don't demand anything from you or anyone else. I merely pointed out how unactive you two are in the MHS. That is a fact. I am not crying about that. Trust me. So why post it over and over again? Trust me. No one is happier then me.
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Tim Cranwill
Active Member
MHS founder / President
MHS Representative
Posts: 55
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Post by Tim Cranwill on May 29, 2006 22:35:47 GMT -5
I apologize too. I really didn't want to get involved. But I also could not let these two "intellectual bullies / arrogant herpers" try to make my friends look bad when, in fact, they are the ones who should look bad in this case. Sorry, Ryan and the members of the forum. Over and out!
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Post by minnow on May 29, 2006 22:42:51 GMT -5
Unlike Kaley, I live in Leader and I didn't reply to your post mentioning you were going to be in the area. In Kaley's defense, your next post irked me too. When you talked about how nice the locals and CO's are, I felt you insinuated that some of us aren't so nice. "The conservation officers there, however, are really awesome and helpful. The locals are amazing!" Strike one. "But not everyone can make these counting events - and not everyone would want to." So you will understand that we couldn't join you on such short notice. My apologies for not wishing you luck. "Secondly, of course, when you drive 14 hours with a specific goal in mind, it is reassuring to know that someone you have had previous positive contact with would be interested in sharing some of their natural beauty of their province with you - and a shared passion and interest" Before planning a trip like that it is common to arrange dates and times in advance with people you might want to go herping with. I'm sorry I didn't drop everything so I could show you around. I work shift work in Health Care and I need more notice than 6 days to arrange for time off work. "As I see it your post was clearly personal against us beeing there." Like Kaley said, she doesn't even live here. Maybe you are reading stuff into her posts? "It sure would have been nice to have made some friends to visit at the same time that share a common interest." Not likely now! Carol
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Post by huggorm on May 29, 2006 22:44:40 GMT -5
I apologize too. I really didn't want to get involved. But I also could not let these two "intellectual bullies / arrogant herpers" try to make my friends look bad when, in fact, they are the ones who should look bad in this case. Sorry, Ryan and the members of the forum. Over and out! Well, I wonder whos being bullied here. You dont think slander is bad obviosly. That say alot of your personality. Over and out.
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Post by huggorm on May 29, 2006 22:50:28 GMT -5
Unlike Kaley, I live in Leader and I didn't reply to your post mentioning you were going to be in the area. In Kaley's defense, your next post irked me too. When you talked about how nice the locals and CO's are, I felt you insinuated that some of us aren't so nice. " The conservation officers there, however, are really awesome and helpful. The locals are amazing!" Strike one. " But not everyone can make these counting events - and not everyone would want to." So you will understand that we couldn't join you on such short notice. My apologies for not wishing you luck. " Secondly, of course, when you drive 14 hours with a specific goal in mind, it is reassuring to know that someone you have had previous positive contact with would be interested in sharing some of their natural beauty of their province with you - and a shared passion and interest" Before planning a trip like that it is common to arrange dates and times in advance with people you might want to go herping with. I'm sorry I didn't drop everything so I could show you around. I work shift work in Health Care and I need more notice than 6 days to arrange for time off work. " As I see it your post was clearly personal against us beeing there." Like Kaley said, she doesn't even live here. Maybe you are reading stuff into her posts? " It sure would have been nice to have made some friends to visit at the same time that share a common interest." Not likely now! Carol You reading the post as the devil read the bible. What is strange how people we had contact with all of a sudden decided we were presumably collectors. Wouldnt you think that was strange? Offcourse we didnt demand people to go out herping with us. But it would have been fun. Thats all.
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Tim Cranwill
Active Member
MHS founder / President
MHS Representative
Posts: 55
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Post by Tim Cranwill on May 29, 2006 23:01:29 GMT -5
Well, I wonder whos being bullied here. You dont think slander is bad obviosly. That say alot of your personality. Over and out. Do you guys need to look up "slander" in the dictionary? On one hand you think we should name names on our forum when a store doesn't conform to your ideals. Is that slander? No, no, no... of course not. It's "right" when you do it. On the other hand, someone suggests you "might collect" or that you “come off as arrogant” and you have your team of lawyers ready to spring into action! lol Maybe look up "hypersensitive" if you're going to bother pulling out the old Webster. I love how people will bend the rules to justify their actions and beliefs. Enough of this nonsense! I am going down stairs to handle some of my snakes...
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Post by sheri on May 29, 2006 23:24:32 GMT -5
This will be our last post - clearly, we are not able to communicate in an effective way here.
Ok, not taking an interest in every facet of the herp hobby is selfish? What value does it bring to the table if I post meaningless comments? I know you have already said that you prefer fake over real.. but I just can't do it. If I posted a thread on tarantulas (which I know you don't care for) and you make some comment like; "Nice spider" it means absolutely nothing to me. This doesn't mean I think you are selfish, or mean. It means I think you don't have an interest in spiders. And that's totally cool with me, you know?
When did the forum start? December? So there have been like 6 meetings? I don't think you understand what it means to be involved in a herp society - when not a member of the board. So everyone else except us has gone to all the meetings? Really?
Lelle has lived here for three months. I have 2 small kids and am self-employed. And I have commented on things that interest me and those I have a real appreciation for. Like Kevin's caiman, some narcisse pics posted by two different members, and a few others. I mod on another board - that takes up a lot of my forum time.
As for having few fans in the hobby... we are not out to have fans. I am respected in the arachnid circles as a result of a commitment to the hobby and because I have been around there a long time. Lelle is very respected in his herp society at home and has been for years.
Mostly, we enjoy being out in the field. I am uncomfortable in large groups, and part of me hosting that informal meeting was an attempt to get to know everyone better, and to introduce Lelle to some locals. The meeting I attended I did so because the subject matter was of interest to me. I don't feel as though contributing to a society means I have to be at every single one.
What kind of headache? Because we disagreed on some issues? We never held that against you or anyone else. It is merely part of a forum and it is stimulating and mind opening to read the opinions of others - even if we do not agree with them.
I have never been anything but helpful to those that have posted. I have never offered reptile advice because I am so new to it, but I have offered advice on arachnids. On every other forum I have ever posted on, this is what we do. It is never taken as an insult - the forum exists not to make everyone feel good but to share info and make the hobby better for all.
I am not sure what it is exactly that so put you off, but your posts on the HISS forum have given me no further insight. And in review of mine and Lelle's... all I can think is that there is some huge communication barrier or that we are somehow living on different planets.
We didn't expect anyone from Leader to take us out, we knew we could find snakes on our own. It wasn't about that, it was about being in the field and enjoying it. Illegal collecting is a big deal, and Ryan should not have shared this "gut instinct' with anyone without any solid proof, and certainly not without asking or confronting us! It is a serious accusation, and a total character smear. We never meant that we would start a lawsuit and if you thought so, you need to re-read.
A pet store is already in the public eye, and by nature, are keeping animals to sell at a profit. A customer review backed with an individual account of an experience firsthand at a public retail vendor is not slander. If one was to make the accusation that the animals were illegal, that the shopowner was hitting them etc. *that* is slander if the actions were not observed firsthand. Noting that the cages were dirty, or that the animals were not housed correctly is not.
We don't expect or demand anything. Our opinions are what they are and people are free to value it as they wish, just as we are free to evaluate theirs. I don't honestly care a whole lot one way or the other. But I will not sugarcoat my thoughts - and I have no respect for those that do. Then instead of a discussion forum, you have elevator smalltalk.
In all honesty, I hope that the society can improve conditions for the animals and improve communication between hobbyists. But I have my doubts it will be able to in such an environment where experience is feared and opinions are seen as threats.
If anyone wishes to further discuss the matter, we are certainly open to it. Though I am done with posting and with text - it seems only to make matters worse. Our home number is (204) 283-6676. You, or any of the others from Manitoba or Saskatchewan, are more than welcome to call or meet with us. We fully intend to stay in the hobby, which involves more field herping than husbandry, but we are bound to be running into one another occasionally.
Sheri and Lelle
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Post by kaley on May 29, 2006 23:57:00 GMT -5
Well holy crap - Did I ever open up a big can of worms For the record, I have no input on the whole collecting thing - it's news to me, and totally not what the post was originally about (hey - where's the new thread? We're all going to get our delicates slapped!) What nerve did the initial post touch? That outsiders are not welcome to see your wildlife? Sorry, but it is kind of hilarious. Anyways Lelle, I think you should re-read (if you even read it the first time) my original reply - I think I was fairly clear ( I don't have your creative writing talents - I'm a little jealous). One more time - just for those of us who missed it or choose to ignore it or tried unsuccessfully to twist my words or to insult me when no insult was ever intended on my part: (I appologize to all the rest of you who got my point the first half dozen times or so...but apparently this must drag on...) First - you (you may assume a plural you, as I don't think you individually were a separate user at the time?) were rude to the locals...Carol has outlined it again just recently...and rudeness annoys me - so there's one minor "touched nerve". I was just pointing out the fact that your comments could be taken badly, and expressed my hope that you had not intended an insult - having never actually met either of you, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. (maybe I don't have a sense of humour - but that's not hilarious to me...) Second - I expressed a variety of concerns for the safety of people out herping, for the rights and property of the land owners, and for the SAFETY of the snakes (not MY snakes - I don't believe I ever said MY snakes or MY wildlife or anything - but that was a clever little ploy to twist me into a nutty little radcalist, wasn't it!) if herping in the Leader area should turn into a wild free for all. My concern was for their STRESS from being HARASSED on an ongoing basis. Do you really think that a snake that is coiled up and rattling at you is having a good time?? HARDLY! Therefore it is stressed, and as we all know, stress is bad. So - the main nerve that was touched (sorry if it's hilarious - maybe I am just a nutty granola cruncher after all, eh?) was a sincere concern for the long term well being of the (hey look, I didn't say mine again...odd...) SNAKES!!! Seems from recent posts in this thread that you guys bill yourselves as pretty hard core field herpers...and therefore, a deep concern for the welfare of wildlife - even at the expense of hobbyists - really shouldn't be hilarious... It also seems that you claim to "enjoy" and "respect" open dialog, and are willing to listen to other's opinions if they would simply voice them...That IS funny - you seem to have taken my invitation for an good debate about (here - I'll quote it one more time - just so no one misses it AGAIN!!! - watch for it....) Funny response this has all been, especially from debate lovers such as yourselves... Or maybe YOU are reading my posts "as the devil reads the bible"? Now that is hilarious!! So are we done now? Or would you like to drag this on, and on, and on... Kaley
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Tim Cranwill
Active Member
MHS founder / President
MHS Representative
Posts: 55
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Post by Tim Cranwill on May 30, 2006 0:26:54 GMT -5
Looks like they deleted their accounts on here just like they did on the MSH forum.
Kind of like the kids who are losing the soccer game on the playground so they up and go home and take their ball with them...
It's a shame. I think they had some really good info to share if and when they felt like it.
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Post by Ryan on Jun 6, 2006 15:30:29 GMT -5
Holy crap!!! My computer is down for a while and I miss all this excitement, lol. A shame as I am one of the three local herpers who apparently ignored Sheri and Lelle's request for help in showing them around. I considered not even bothering posting as it looks as though we've seen the last of Sheri and Lelle here and the thread has calmed down but I figured what the hell.
I received the e-mail sometime on May 9th and my computer went down on May 10th without me ever seeing the e-mail......please please forgive me guys, lol. I just got that e-mail a few mintues ago along with another unpleasant one sent after your trip here, I've been waiting to read their crap since Ryan informed me of this whole situation a week ago.
I have no trouble admitting I have certain gut feelings myself regarding Sheri and Lelle, none of which I have publically stated anywhere and feelings I only shared with one other person as they shared my concerns. On what do I base my gut feelings? On statements made by Sheri to myself in numerous personal msg's going back a long time on other boards. Long story short, I don't trust Sheri and even if I was aware of her visit I would not have helped her in her search for the local wildlife.
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Post by joeysgreen on Jun 10, 2006 7:37:13 GMT -5
May I suggest that this type of thread gets deleted or stopped way before it becomes the annoying arguement that this was. Just kinda brought a bad taste to my mouth from both sides is all...
Ian
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Post by Ryan Wunsch on Jun 10, 2006 10:15:21 GMT -5
That was my first thought Ian actually. Since I was involved in it however, I thought it would be unfair.
I did ask a few people, who were mostly undecided but sided more with leaving it on.
But, I think it shows that the forum, small as it is, could still use a few moderators. Right now, it is really just me, and that didn't work very well this time.
However, the short list I've had in my head for other moderators if the site needed some were Kaley, Tim Cranwill, and Ryan Wilker... which still would have made for a difficult decision in this thread.
Also, I don't have a special forum set up like most boards to to move conflicts like this. I am hesitant to just delete it entirely, and let it vanish completely - there are reasons other forums have a special place to move threads like this. I will ask Tim, I think there is a way to make a special hidden forum for threads that could be moved.
And, I knew that Ryan Wilker didn't have internet access, I kind of wanted to give him the chance to defend himself of the accusations - which he now has a chance to do.
I don't expect to see a lot of threads like this one, this was a unique case, and there was more to it that meets the eye.
I will likely start a thread in the next few days about moderation, there are a few things I should look into first.
Ryan
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Post by Ryan Wunsch on Jun 10, 2006 10:17:02 GMT -5
Oh, and clamato juice is known to remove bad tastes from the mouth Ryan
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Tim Cranwill
Active Member
MHS founder / President
MHS Representative
Posts: 55
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Post by Tim Cranwill on Jun 10, 2006 12:00:30 GMT -5
I will try to be as unbiased as I can here... I think the whole censorship of clashing opinions (call them fights if you will) can cost you more members than allowing the odd scuffle such as this one. And had the thread been closed in the middle of the "discussion", I think another thread would have opened up to finish it off. Censoring posts is a really hard line to walk. They made some claims and accusation, some private and some public. They also asked for an explanation and got it. I guess it went on from there. People can't be expected to get along with everyone all of the time. "Stuff" happens. Sometimes it should happen in private and other times it should happen in public. THEY made it a public issue. I’ll leave it at that. The whole thing has pretty much wrapped up and I say it is Ryan's call as to leaving it up or taking it down. If it were my site (and similar things have happened on my site), I would probably lock the thread now and let it slip into oblivion. I don't feel any seriously slanderous comments or claims were made, there was no real name calling. The issues needed to be addressed. I think it had to run its course and has done that. Just my opinions.
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Post by Ryan Wunsch on Jun 10, 2006 12:08:55 GMT -5
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