Rattlesnakes show strong family bonds

[Ryan Wunsch]

I was discussing this with Ryan Wilker last night, and thought it would make a good first post in this forum.

news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/02/0223_040223_rattlesnakes.html

I've always thought it was a very interesting study, and one worth discussing here probably. It is too long to post in this thread I think, but it starts out like this...

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Solitary, aggressive, and dangerous to know—that's how most people see rattlesnakes. Yet scientists are beginning to reveal a seemingly caring, family-loving side to these deadly reptiles.

This reappraisal is highlighted by a new study of timber rattlesnakes (Crotalus horridus) in the eastern United States. Researchers suggest that, as adults, the rattlesnakes can recognize their siblings, even after being separated at birth.

The finding marks the first time kin recognition has been observed in snakes.

[kaley]

Neat!

Similar work has been done in pigs...and in an elegant set of studies, they found that it was "litter mates" rather than "kin" that were recognized...It would be interesting to see if there were differences based on actual relations and snakes that simply hatched together...

Kaley
(who is staying firmly in the "geek" section, where she belongs!)

[Tim Cranwill]

That is one of the more interesting tid bits I have read about snakes in a while. I think the surface is just being scratched... that is, if we have even discovered the surface yet!

[Ryan Wunsch]

I mentioned this relationship with the snakes on another forum one time.

The thread was about inbreeding in captivity, and someone (Maybe Jeff Favelle?) suggested that they inbreed in the wild, and it was possibly an evolutionary advantage that worked out all of the bad genetic morphs or something like that.

My memory was fuzzy - If anyone remembers that discussion, or knows more about how small gene pools might prevent bad genes - please refresh my memory.

Kaley
(who is staying firmly in the "geek" section, where she belongs!)

Well, I didn't want to call it the "Ryan and Kaley" forum like I referred to the other day. But I hope you don't restrict your posting to just the science section - you have a lot of other good ideas about a lot of other discussion on the other forums.

But now you don't need to worry about hogging the forum (we can go nuts here!) I think these sections will get quite a bit of input from a lot of members though.

Ryan

[kaley]

admin said:

I mentioned tMy memory was fuzzy - If anyone remembers that discussion, or knows more about how small gene pools might prevent bad genes - please refresh my memory.

Well, I don't think I would have seen the other discussion...but I can take a shot at the theory behind it!

We start with basic natural selection - traits that are somehow less suited for the particular environment ("bad genes") simply don't get passed on, as the animals carrying them are less reproductively successful than ones with the favourable adaptations.

With inbreeding, or whatever else is causing a limited gene pool, you are essentially "concentrating" your traits...that is your little population will become very similar...So if you apply heavy selection pressure for the "good genes" (and against the "bad genes") you end up with a small population with mostly the "good genes"...

So...in a situation where you have heavy selection pressure (nature or heavy culling in captivity) inbreeding can concentrate your "good genes" and leave you with a population with few of the "bad genes". The big trouble comes when something changes...and what were the "good" genes are not so good anymore...you have little variation to draw from to find the new good traits...

Hopefully that made sense!

Kaley

[Shawn(snakebite)]

I am not sure if this belongs here , but I figured you were all ready talkin rattlers here so........I was watchin a show the other day on Animal Planet and there was a University proffessor who had been studyin snakes for some time and has kept a bunch for research .Included in this were some long time captives, such as a prarie rattler.He had this female rattler from a baby and pointed out to say that after how many years( I don't recall how long)she produced one baby after never being with a male. I found this very intriguing and I just wandered if anyone has any additional theories on this topic.
I know female snakes can retain sperm from a previous breeding even after years and produce offspring, hell, I have had that happen this year and last year even in my breeding groups, but to never be with a male and produce is something to study .Any of you medical guys have any thoughts on this.

[jones]

If i remember correctly your tiawans laid 5 eggs? if that is right are they all called for or would you have some still available? If so i would be interested as they are a very nice snake.

[Ryan Wunsch]

I'm not a medical guy but I remember other discussions about female animals reproducing on their own.

It is called Parthenogenesis - wikipedia has a good article on it

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthenogenesis

Interesting link that might even be about the same guy you mentioned. In this case, all the babies were males (until reading that I thought all the babies had to be females, clones of the mother). If that is a new type of parthenogenesis, then I think that really will change a lot of peoples theories about the potential impact of virgin births.

home.pcisys.net/~dlblanc/articles/Parthenogenesis.php

Yup, I think that is probably the same person from the show you watched

www.discoverychannel.ca/animals/snakeshome/snakearchives/virginsnakes/

Lots of interesting links coming up on google, seems to be more information about this since the last time I remember seeing it discussed about snakes on another forum. Must be really exciting for those people who study asexual reproduction.

Might be worth while starting a thread about Parthenogenesis in snakes (or reptiles)

Ryan

[joeysgreen]

While parthenogenesis is still kinda rare in snakes, it's common in the herp world. Some species, as you might be aware of, rely on this entirely. Reptiles just have a bit of an edge over mammals with this

Ian