Was Jungle corns in the making - continued

[Ryan Wunsch]

It was suggested to me that I move the jungle corn thread, but the original topic is in the right forum, we just kind of changed topics (a few times, my fault!)

I thought I'd continue the discussion here. To see what has been discussed, look here
hisscanada.proboards98.com/index.cgi?board=cornsnakes&action=display&thread=1144381545&page=1

I'm not really sure! I would think that what's happening is that you are seeing phenotypically similar traits (but maybe not actually identical!) that are being caused by different alleles of the same gene...or maybe they are caused by different genes altogether in the various species (I find that doubtful...but who knows!)...So if you don't get two copies of the same allele, then you don't get the desired trait, and your traits are not compatible...

So, the term compatable probably works then?

I can't even think of any other instance of people doing any kind of cross-species colour work at all!! Maybe it's been done with "Ligers" or something, but I have no idea! Maybe fish people do similar stuff, but I know ABSOLUTELY nothing about colour in fish...although there is a pile of research around about it, because they often use zebra fish in melanocyte research - I'd be surprised if there was anything like the number of colours/patterns that there are in snakes...But like I said, I really don't know much about it!

I know most horse stuff is co-dominant or incomplete dominant, so it isn't the same as recessive pairings which require 2 "compatable" alleles (allelic pairs)? But there are apaloosa spotted mules (mule being a hybrid cross of a horse and donkey), and palomino mules. I wonder if there are any traits that aren't able to be passed on to mules.

But red (e) is recessive to black (E), and I'm not sure if I've ever seen a red donkey, but I have seen red mules (I think). I'll have to see if I can find anything on donkey color genetics.

I used to think there were 3 basic colors of horses, and wondered why snakes only came in the one basic color. But now (correct me if I'm wrong) I realize that horses are black EE, or Ee - unless the recessive modifier is homozygous, and then it is a red horse ee. Then at a different locus (correct me if I'm wrong) there is an agouti modifier which is dominant (or co-dominant) and 1 copy of that will restrict the black color on the black horse to it's points, and phenotypically the horse will be bay, even though genotypically it is black.

If I used any incorrect words please quote and correct me, I'd really rather be using the correct terminology than what most horse people use (even though it is practical, but it is incorrect) - but having learned the practical slang way, I'm finding it hard to make the transition.

Ryan

[kaley]

admin said:

So, the term compatable probably works then?

Probably, but you have to be able to define it first! And it's usually easier if you can use terms that are a little more universal...but I'm not sure that this issue comes up in any other critters...so I guess your word works...

But there are apaloosa spotted mules (mule being a hybrid cross of a horse and donkey), and palomino mules.
But red (e) is recessive to black (E), and I'm not sure if I've ever seen a red donkey, but I have seen red mules (I think). I'll have to see if I can find anything on donkey color genetics.

Wouldn't a palomino mule be "ee" - because it's not producing black?? isn't palomino diluted red?

I used to think there were 3 basic colors of horses, and wondered why snakes only came in the one basic color. But now (correct me if I'm wrong) I realize that horses are black EE, or Ee - unless the recessive modifier is homozygous, and then it is a red horse ee. Then at a different locus (correct me if I'm wrong) there is an agouti modifier which is dominant (or co-dominant) and 1 copy of that will restrict the black color on the black horse to it's points, and phenotypically the horse will be bay, even though genotypically it is black.

You're right...in horses (and dogs, and cattle...) you start of with black or red...then you go from their into agouti which restricts black ditribution...then you get into all of the other things like dilutions and spotting etc. But the basis is capable of producing black pigment (melanin) or not (ie producing phaeomelaning instead)...

But your Bay horse is not really just genotypically black - it's genotypically Bay...You need to be E_A_ to be bay...eeA_ would be "red" because there's no black to restrict into points, and E_aa would be black...

In terms of snakes - I don't think they come is one basic colour - I think that they can produce black and red simultaneously , which is really cool.. but kinda throws out any comparisons with other species...They must have some really neat colour producing cells...

Kaley

[Ryan Wunsch]

Wouldn't a palomino mule be "ee" - because it's not producing black?? isn't palomino diluted red?

To tell you the truth, I'm not exactly sure what I saw, so forget what I said. Do you know if there are red donkeys? Maybe that really light color in standard jacks is the red? Not sure If I've seen any mammoth jacks besides black, but I am going to look into it.

You're right...in horses (and dogs, and cattle...) you start of with black or red...then you go from their into agouti which restricts black ditribution...then you get into all of the other things like dilutions and spotting etc. But the basis is capable of producing black pigment (melanin) or not (ie producing phaeomelaning instead)...

But your Bay horse is not really just genotypically black - it's genotypically Bay...You need to be E_A_ to be bay...eeA_ would be "red" because there's no black to restrict into points, and E_aa would be black...

I think in a dog example you said that agouti was a 3rd allele at the same loci (where E and e are). Is it on a different loci for horses (I'm assuming so from the way you denoted it). I did a quick google, but did not come up with an answer.

Ryan

[Ryan Wunsch]

I think I found some information I am going to go read.

Looks like Agouti is a different locus in horses than the Extension locus.

www.mhref.com/color/genetics/tour/basic5.html

Ryan

[kaley]

admin said:

I think in a dog example you said that agouti was a 3rd allele at the same loci (where E and e are). Is it on a different loci for horses (I'm assuming so from the way you denoted it). I did a quick google, but did not come up with an answer.

Ryan

If I did, I was wrong! Maybe you misunderstood?Or maybe I'm just shitty at explaining things. E and Agouti are separate genes (I can say genes for sure because they've actually been mapped -they know exactly what bits of DNA code for these things).

Kaley

[Ryan Wunsch]

This is why I was confused

Indeed there can be more than one allele...I can't think of any other snake examples off the top of my head, as I'm still just learning the snake stuff...But in dogs there's a couple examples:

"E": E is the designation for dogs that can produce "black" pigement (eumelanin) and is dominant, e is for red (phaeomelanin) and is recessive (red dogs are ee), but E'm' (I'll use single quotes for superscript) is a third allele responsible for the black mask in fawn Danes, etc.

Another one is the Agouti gene:
(this to affects distribution of "black" pigment, so in an "ee" dog you wouldn't see any of these, even they're present)

I thought that you meant that agouti was an allele at the same locus as E and e.

People say there are 3 basic colors of horses, but the way I look at it, there is only Black and Red, and agouti is a dominant modifier just like a pattern or dilute modifier (except that it restricts color and doesn't act to dilute or change pattern)

So - from my perspective - a buckskin horse would be a black horse that also has the Creme Gene and Agouti Gene, the same way that a Palomino tobiano is a Red horse that has the Creme Gene and Tobiano gene.

It seems like agouti is given more importance because it isn't a "dilute" or "pattern". That has always kind of been a confusing issue to me.

Ryan

[kaley]

admin said:

So - from my perspective - a buckskin horse would be a black horse that also has the Creme Gene and Agouti Gene, the same way that a Palomino tobiano is a Red horse that has the Creme Gene and Tobiano gene.

BINGO! You get a prize!!! ;D

Kaley