breeders...

[daeva]

hi guys,
does anyone know of any breeders in sask (or nearby) that breed mud, musk or map turtles... (anything that stays fairly small) or any breeds of smaller torts (russians, etc). I'm not looking to buy anytime really soon. but would like to see if there are any sask options, as i think it would be less stressful for the animal if i find it close to home...
Lisa.

[daeva]

or. kaley,
can you post if you ever get any of these in your rescue, well. if you ever get anything but a slider. i am interested in pretty much any land turtles (boxies, etc) i would much rather re-home than buy from a breeder.

thanks a bunch.
Lisa.

[kaley]

I don't think anyone here has breed any of those things...yet - maybe in a few years!

And it is rare that I get anything other than RES in the rescue - although we have had a couple yellow bellies (HUGE!!), and a western painted and an Eastern box turtle - the latter two are now my personal pets! But I will definetely keep you posted! You could also check out other nearby rescues (AB and MB) - but remember that techincally you need to get an import permit to bring any reptiles into the province...

Kaley

[alex]

My classmate breeds stinkpots/common musks in Saskatoon. I don't think he's selling any though. His plans for a stinkpot army are definitely coming to fruition... I think he's got 14
or 17
can't remember now
So they are around
Just the one source for them I know of won't share

[daeva]

well. let me know if he ever needs to part with any of his smelly children, i'd be happy to take one.

i've read up on the import license thing, i know where and how to get them, i was looking into a tortoise for a while, and still want one, but they are just toooo pricey at the moment. so. i'm anxiously biding my time until the cards are right.

thanks kaley, i'll keep my eyes peeled.


Lisa.

[alex]

I love my tortoise. I really like Testudo spp... many of the others are too mellow for me. I absolutely found my redfoot completely and utterly boring and I"m glad I sold him to someone who cares for them. So make sure you check out adults of any species you're interested in and see if you like them.
That being said, my boyfriend literally found an adult female greek tortoise in the park, and no one claimed her.

[daeva]

damn, i would be sooo excited if i found a tort wandering around. would be like winning the lotto.
anyways, i've been researching russians, they stay small. and i think i could have one thrive in canada. also from what i have read, and talked to people about, they are very outgoing, and fun torts to keep. so. i'm going with that. eventually.....
does he still have the greek tortoise? why do you think it was wandering? any health problems? one more question.. are these in the same family as the russians, i think they are. i just can't think of the name of the other tort i was reading up on right now. i think it was a greek. or hermann's. but something in my brain is telling me russians and hermann's are the same thing.
*grin*
Lisa.

[alex]

Tank had some shell rot... she was technically found in a bog, and it's too cold there for her. She's fine now though. We figure it either got out of a backyard or was dumped off (lots of res in that park) but who knows
I have a hermann's. I love my hermann's. Most of the ones in Canada are eastern hermann's (Testudo hermanni boetgeri). He has personality out the wazoo and has thrived for me, though I find feeding tortoises in Saskatoon a real pain. It was easier in Vancouver. Russians are pretty similar although due to some unique anatomy they've been reclassified as Agrionemys horsfieldii rather than as a Testudo. Their personalities are the same, I find. I had several friends who bred a variety tortoises in Vancouver.
Anyway, mine has become sexually mature in just under 2 years, grows like a weed and has no pyramiding because I am anal retentive about humidity in his enclosure. It's quite hard in the prairies to maintain the kind of humidity tortoises require... even if the macroclimate seems dry, they spend so much time in burrows they really need humid microclimates.
I should note, the Greek tortoise hates all the redfoots.

[joeysgreen]

I"m a huge fan of the russians. I have two, although I guess the testudo's would be nice too, I"m just biased Alex, do you know why the agrionemys reclassification?


Ian

[daeva]

those are just absolutely lovely torts! i'm terribly jealous!
they look healthy, and obviously eat better than i do, ha.

[alex]

Ian, it's been a long time since I read that paper... I vaguely remember something about the shape of the carapace and plastron...
I also just saw something proposing to reclassify hermanni into the genus Eurotestudo... dunno if it got accepted but maybe I don't have Testudo anymore either.
Do you worry feeding Alliums or highly fermentable carbohydrate to your pets?
I have trouble sharing blackberries with my guys

[kaley]

alex said:

Do you worry feeding Alliums or highly fermentable carbohydrate to your pets?

I don't feed onion-y things to any of my pets - but that may just be a paranoia carry-over from my dogs...Is there any reason not to feed them to torts? I just never thought about it...

As for highly fermentable carbs - I don't worry...But what are you counting as "highly fermentable"? Again, is there a reason to worry?

Kaley

[alex]

See, that's why I don't feed Alliums to any of my pets either. I know garlic isn't as bad as onion, because cats are sensitive to both but dogs can handle small amounts of garlic, but I've asked and basically the reason that humans can eat them is that we do get a hemolysis from alliums, just not usually enough to matter or even cause jaundice. It's apparently hard to eat enough onion to cause an anemic crisis in a person, and I'm not sure if cooking changes anything. So I just avoid them as I find enough options I don't feel the need to include them.
That being said, my crow likes feeding my tortoise. She's fed her sea lily, numerous cacti, jasmine, bleeding hearts, calla lily... that sort of thing. The tortoise has always survived (as I usually only find out to rip half a leaf out of his mouth). I don't know if they have some incredable herbivore liver (since they generally metabolise plant toxins better than omnivores, not to say the obligate carnivores) but I figure why risk it?

The highly fermentable carbs are one of my rants It's the specific tort aspects are largely unveterinary based because I can't find much in the way of sources to supplement it
but
easily broken down carbohydrates are a big problem - people they make us fat, have heart disease and get diabetes. Carb filler in cat food is thought to be part of the reason behind diabetes in the small obligate carnivores (ditto ferrets, and might be involved in insulinomas in them). Dogs tend to get obese. Horses, ruminants and the like as well as commercial poultrytend to get major GIT problems, and sudden death in broilers is pretty much due to high carb diet interacting with fast growth. Many of these syndromes cause hemorrhage/necrosis in the gut and sudden death or else irreversable changes that are kind of nasty.
So my feeling is why include easy carbs, like squash, low fibre veggies or a lot of fruit? I'll include small quantities of fruit for things like my PTS or box turtles, but the tortoise gets none. At best, they'll be relatively empty calories for an animal that has evolved on low nutrient content and high fibre foods. At worst, I'd worry about sudden death from intestinal disease in a manner that happens in almost every mammal or avian common in veterinary medicine. I'm pretty sure it's what suddenly kills small but seemingly thriving softshells, if anyone else has had that happen... mine was eating pellets that contained grain meal. One of my friends lost several members of a clutch of Testudo tortoises that seemed to be doing well and growing rapidly and then just dropped dead. What I've heard anecdotally happen sounds so so similar to Clostridial or necrotic enteritis type disease I just don't really want to push it, and I've been hearing of situations like those since before I got into vet school. Trouble is, it's quite hard to prove because the Clostridia should be in the gut right there anyway, and are one of the first bacteria to really go nuts post mortem. I think you see it less in things like RES, beardies, iguanas, etc because they do eat a lot of highly fermentable stuff seasonally and are likely better at coping with sudden diet changes than an animal that has evolved on a very restricted energy diet. So I need cohorts and trials to work out my idea (some day... after I'm done my next degree maybe)
So that's why I avoid highly fermentable carbohydrates. It's also why I avoid commercial diets - the first ingredients are always corn or wheat. It is possible to come up with relatively high fibre diets here based on what is available outside, in my garden or in stores based on fibrous leaf material, although it was way easier in Vancouver with all the stores like Choices and Whole Foods and access to my parents' grapevines.
Anyone else have thoughts? Does that reasoning make sense? I explained this to the hagen rep last year when they were at the school, and he said he fully agreed with me, but he thought their diets were a good idea for people who wanted a pet tortoise (he said he'd never heard of anyone who put so much time into their tortoises diet before)

[kaley]

I guess for all my critters, I tend to try to stick to "natural" foods if possible...

My dogs are on raw(meat, organs, bones and some veggies - NO grain), and my red foot tortoises get leafy greens and fruit, boxies get bugs, fruits, and whatever else I can convince them to eat...including the occasional pellets, but that's mostly just a supplement, not a staple...Turtles get a staple of pellets, supp'd with everything else I can get hold of for them, but I try to pick the "lower grain" pellets, as much as possible...

My cats are the exception, in that they are just fed kibble, but that's because I'm too lazy to do raw for cats, and it's a serious pain if we go away - I would prefer to feed them raw too, because if anything should NOT be having grains, it's cats...

I really would love to see more exotic animal nutrition research done...interesting theory about the enteritis...again, I'd never really thought about that sort of thing in reptiles before

In fact I would like to see more research done for all "pets" that focuses on what is ideal for the animal...rather than just what is neccessary or makes them grow...Having an Animal Science background, I've been bombarded with meet the requirements cheaply style of nutrition - which is kinda depressing...

[alex]

Yes, I also hate that. I can't stand production medicine... I really hate all clinical medicine, but production stuff is just profoundly depressing for me. How cheaply can you pound out poundage of animal product with minimal concession to welfare drives me nuts. I can't believe what's allowed to go into cattle diets sometimes.
Anyway, I don't mean to sound totally psychotic like all prepared foods are bad. You need to be able to read and understand labels though... and I think for many dogs/cats there are good pet store products out there. I've just never seen a prepared herp diet I really thought cut it. I use pellets even with my aquatic turtles as a supplement rather than a mainstay, and I only really use reptomin or trout chow. I've never tried mazuri, but it's probably at least adequate. However, even the mazuri large tortoise formulations for zoos with galaps and aldabras and such has an awful lot of corn meal and wheat products... it's like, feed 'em a good bale of timothy and mixed grass hay. It'll be fine. And cheaper.
I used to have this fight all the time back home, but it wasn't particularly even with the quality of diet Ian's feeding - he has variety and fibre and trace minerals and vitamins and all that just in the photo parts I can see. It was things like diets for iquanas that'd basically be romaine lettuce and butternut squash mixed together called good... the Ca:P might've been 2:1, but the iggie diet is a little more complex in composition than that.
So I might be totally neurotic and anal retentive with certain details like diet when I could do it cheaper and easier... but I have reeeeally healthy herbivorous reptiles (when I can find the PTS to feed him. He seems to be behind the toilet a lot for some reason.)

[joeysgreen]

wow, this is usually such a slow forum and look at all I've missed in the day or two eh

While I'll admit the berries and onions arn't a common part of the diet, I don't hesitate to add them in once in a while. However this isn't done without thinking about all that's already been discussed. However while the berries/onions are different species than what would be found in their native land, I don't doubt there are similiar plants eaten when in season. IMO tort's are quite resiliant in all aspects, and have evolved as such. Dietary fluctuations are as simple as a meadow flower bloom, drought, spring shoots, or fall berries. However, and again, I don't have any sources or studies to back it up, but I think that if owners condition their animals to be finicky or unaccustomed to "extended variety" so to speak, then they might not tolerate a dietary swing as they might otherwise have done.

On the other hand, toxins are toxins. Some things you just can't get used to. From my second hand experiences with a tort email list (through chelonia.org) tortoises kept outdoors do extraordinarly well with choosing their own diets and avoiding toxic plants. This has shown true even for exotic species kept in NA.

As per commerical diets, I don't think they are that bad at all. With dogs and cats of course. They've been researched to death, and this continues. Thus the higher end diets are really quite well composed. I use Hills w/d for my 7yr old f/s cat. Now with reptiles, lots of research is actually being done. I was impressed with all the feeding trials (some going on over 10yrs) done by the author of the nutrition chapter in Mader (can't remember the name off the top of my head). However this isn't being tranfered into a nice convenient commercial diet because the research itself is showing this isn't ideal.

This has turned into quite the fun and interesting discussion

Ian

[daeva]

i think the reason this forum might be slow (and/or) hard to 'access'.. is cause these awesome conversations start happening, but they have nothing to do with the original thread. ...reading through the 'septicemia in RES' thread, there was about 50 things happening in there at once. (this is just a nudge to get people to start new threads when new and interesting topics pop up--so they are easier to find later).

it's unfortunate i'm not in vet school, these research based topics are terribly interesting, but i get lost so easily.
Lisa.

[kaley]

I agree...and I should be able to split threads into new ones, but for some reason my "status" says admin, but I can't do any admin type stuff...Maybe we can try to copy and paste things into new threads ourselves when things diverge...

[daeva]

ya know, sometimes it's frustrating, but i love the conversation like way the threads go here. it's always funny to me the comparisons between this sask forum, and other ones that are mainly us and uk forums. i like reading this one alot more. too bad it's not as active as others i frequent.

[kaley]

One way to read all the posts on here, without having to just go by the titles of the threads is to use the "View most recent posts" feature in the forum stats bar at the very bottom of the page...It will just show you the last 40 or so posts in chronological order - that way you don't miss anything....Usually works pretty well here, as it is rare that we'd have more than a couple of days worth of posts in the most recent 40...

Kaley