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Post by Shawn(snakebite) on Apr 6, 2006 22:45:45 GMT -5
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Post by Ryan Wunsch on Apr 6, 2006 22:53:48 GMT -5
I thought I saw a posting on another forum, albino F1 jungles, from an albino king to an albino corn.
Are the albino's compatable, and show up in the F1 cross.
Ryan
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Post by minnow on Apr 6, 2006 22:56:04 GMT -5
Oh the porn already! ;-)
Gotta love it.
Good luck with that breeding.
Carol
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Post by Shawn(snakebite) on Apr 6, 2006 23:07:38 GMT -5
Well as to if they are compatible , i'd say well we will have to see , but I'm sure they are. Last year I mated her with a Miami corn het for amel and I got the expected, so that worked.
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Post by Ryan on Apr 7, 2006 0:00:25 GMT -5
Good luck with that pairing Shawn, I'd definately be interested in seeing those offspring when they hatch.
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Post by vanderkm on Apr 7, 2006 12:09:25 GMT -5
The regular albino from cal kings and the corn amel are compatible - produce albino when crossed. The lavender albino cal king is not reported to be compatible with amel in corns - should get normal jungle corns. The lavender in corns is not compatible with anything in cal kings to my knowledge. The anery A from corns has shown up in some jungle corn breedings and snow jungles have been produced,
Best of luck with those - definitely want to see pics,
mary v.
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Post by Shawn(snakebite) on Apr 7, 2006 13:57:13 GMT -5
So what your saying than ,Mary, is that even though my female cal king has the phenotype of a lavender, her genotype does not make it so?
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alex
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Post by alex on Apr 7, 2006 17:45:48 GMT -5
The "lavendar" is not going to show up in the F1s of this cross. Even though they're both called lavendar, it has nothing to do with the similarity of the phenotypes and/or complementary-ness of their genotypes of the snakes. They're separate species and the lavendar-ness of their lavendars is different (one is a purply amelanistic animal, one is anerythristic with a pinkish cast (may or may not be better described as hypoerythristic) and since the other form of amelanism in cal kings is complementary to the amelanism of your cornsnake, and the anerythristic type A gene is clearly somewhere else than that amel corn loci, it's not going to get all expressed as snows or lavendars or any combo thereof. They'll still look neat as jungle corns, just because their colours and patterns are often so neat. The F2s might be really interesting though.
I hope this made sense. I am all tired and cow-pooy
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Post by Ryan Wunsch on Apr 7, 2006 17:57:08 GMT -5
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Post by Shawn(snakebite) on Apr 7, 2006 20:28:00 GMT -5
Ha !! Great idea, all genetics......should be a busy forum!!!
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alex
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Post by alex on Apr 8, 2006 10:04:12 GMT -5
Is there a forum to learn how to be a forum nazi? It makes sense to continue the thread here, and you don't HAVE to read it if it offends you  Besides, a certain someone has a fairly lengthy and fairly insane post about lethal whites in a certain mammal forum (you have now been totally moved into the space in my head reserved for insane horse owners, you realise. I showed it to Dr. Card, our horse repro prof, and she agreed.) |
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Post by Ryan Wunsch on Apr 8, 2006 10:51:20 GMT -5
Is there a forum to learn how to be a forum nazi? It makes sense to continue the thread here, and you don't HAVE to read it if it offends you Sorry if I offended you Alex, I was joking (hence the smiley - I thought people would get the dry humour there, guess I was wrong) and just started the genetics forum for future genetics conversations... minutes before that post was made (which is why I thought the "last warning" thing was a joke) I agree it makes sense to keep that discussion here. I hope no body thought I was being a serious forum nazi. As said, it was a stab at humour, I am sorry if I have offended you. It was also my way of showing the new genetics page, the link to it explained it was a new forum page. If your reply was meant in humour, then it is apparently bit dryer than mine (if that is possible) What did Dr. Card say about genetically white horses, and the White gene? Have a good day Forum Nazi |
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alex
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Post by alex on Apr 8, 2006 17:42:31 GMT -5
I was kidding too. Sorry. The forum is not the best place for the kind of humor I have... it doesn't come across well
She said the defective endothelin receptor is so closely linked to the overo paint gene, that it's nearly always assorting with it, if the horses carry it. She also said the reason it shows up in QH's is that basically, if you've got above a certain amount of white (apparently bald faces, one white spot, or excessively white socks) you must be registered as a paint rather than a quarter horse, but they're exactly the same thing otherwise, so that's why QH's will also carry the lethal white trait, but at a reduced incidence compared to the frame overos as the solid-coloured "paints" can be registered as QHs and will up its frequency. She told me where there's some stuff (I think on VIN) to go look at, but I didn't because I am attempting to cram 6 full courses in my head right now, and I feel like there's jello jiggling between my ears
You have to admit there's some seriously crazed horse owners. It's like serious rabbit people back home. They drive me totally bonkers.
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alex
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Post by alex on Apr 8, 2006 17:46:24 GMT -5
Oh yeah, and she's on the "they're not white they're grey"
Apparently the lethal whites have pink skin and blue eyes (basically, leucistic or as we refer to it in us, "caucasian") so since your horse has neither she thinks it's probably the salbino or whatever you called it, or possibly grey. I dunno what you want to call those salbinos, looking on the internet they're whiter than greys but technically roans, aren't they? A white horse is apparently only albino or leucistic (more accurately, leucistic and dead)
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Post by Ryan Wunsch on Apr 8, 2006 18:06:02 GMT -5
I was kidding too. Sorry. The forum is not the best place for the kind of humor I have... it doesn't come across well I hoped so, I didn't think vets went around calling insane horse people, insane horse people, I thought they had a bigger word for that  Actually the quarterhorse registry changed their rules, so now they register the ones with the paint genes, as quarterhorses. I was shocked to find that out, and I think that wll be the next big market. But, the "cropout" quarterhorses are mostly the sabino pattern as I understand it, not frame overo. More confusion.... Oh I'm with you on the crazy horse people, I have met my fair share (and according to your head I am one ). Actually, us herpers are some of the most level headed of any group of animal owners. Ryan |
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Post by Ryan Wunsch on Apr 8, 2006 18:11:22 GMT -5
Oh yeah, and she's on the "they're not white they're grey" Apparently the lethal whites have pink skin and blue eyes (basically, leucistic or as we refer to it in us, "caucasian") so since your horse has neither she thinks it's probably the salbino or whatever you called it, or possibly grey. I dunno what you want to call those salbinos, looking on the internet they're whiter than greys but technically roans, aren't they? A white horse is apparently only albino or leucistic (more accurately, leucistic and dead) FOR THE LOVE OF GOD ALEX!!!! Go read the links I posted for you about the white gene. There is a co-dominant trait for White, and makes white horses that aren't lethal in heterozygous form. Its not grey, its not paint, its not albino, it is WHITE. It is rare, but it is bred for. WHITE genotype, WHITE phenotype, WHITE HORSE My horse is not that. My horse is a my "white" horse is likely a homozygous sabino, they tend to be white all over. Sabino (not salbino) is 1 of 4 paint genes, also called Sabino Overo The mare is pure white, but painted all over the body instead of just in patches. Medicine Hat paints are the next most whit paint, they only have color on their ears. Technically, our mare's only color would be in her eyes. It would be like a totally white pied ball python. Not leucistic genetically, but both would be pure white visually - but one a color gene and one a pattern gene. Now if you don't start to agree with me I will have to take serious action as administrator of this list ;D  (joking)  ;D Ryan |
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Post by Ryan Wunsch on Apr 8, 2006 18:14:37 GMT -5
Doh! Sorry to have brought the horse discussion to the hybrid snake post....
Back to whatever you were talking about, if you want to, I guess
Ryan
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Post by Ryan Wunsch on Apr 8, 2006 18:43:01 GMT -5
Now I'm a bit confused about the F1 cross and lavender kings.
Is lavender albino in kings compatable with the normal albino kings? Do lavenders kings look that that way because of a modifier that affects the albino?
Shawn had said he got albino jungles with that snake crossed to a het albino corn. Could the lavender albino king be heterozygous for the albino in kings that is compatable with albinos in corns? Is it possible that it is not a lavender albino king?
Either way, I agree with and was going to say that the F2 crosses with all of those genetics floating around should be reall wild, are you planning to hold a lot of those babie back?
Ryan
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Post by kaley on Apr 9, 2006 8:01:38 GMT -5
Now I'm a bit confused about the F1 cross and lavender kings. Is lavender albino in kings compatable with the normal albino kings? Ryan This is a stupid question...but what do you guys mean when you keep saying "compatible"? It's not a term I'm familliar with, and I'm having a hard time catching your meaning... Kaley |
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Post by Shawn(snakebite) on Apr 9, 2006 11:21:44 GMT -5
Ryan- As Mary stated earlier , to her knowledge the lavendar in king albinos is not compatible with the lavendar in corns.But the normal albino trait in kings is compatible with the amel in corns.So, apperently my albino king must be just a real pretty version of a normal albino.I picked up this snake about 6 years ago and she resembles a lavendar so that is what I dubbed her , but now through the help of Mary and others , I now know she musn't be.She is just a regular albino(a very pretty one resembling lavendar).So now I know a bit more about the genetics of this female king , so a big thanks to Mary and everyone for helping me learn more.Always appreciated , I always welcome more knowledge.As for the male corn , I just suspect a possible het for lavendar because of 3 offspring he produced last year.Time will tell and a few tests will have to be made, so we'll see.
Kaley-All we mean by "compatible" is wether the 2 genes will work together and produce what we expected.In the case at hand , we wander wether the kings lavendar gene work with the corns lavendar gene.
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Post by vanderkm on Apr 9, 2006 12:22:43 GMT -5
Yeah right - and now the crazy horse people are taking over a corn thread to discuss their genetics!! How wrong it that!! - just joking - in case it isn't clear. So what your saying than ,Mary, is that even though my female cal king has the phenotype of a lavender, her genotype does not make it so? No Shawn - a cal king that is lavender just doesn't have that mutation on the gene that is compatible with the lavender gene in corns. If both parents are lavender - a lav cal king and a lavender corn - the babies will be het for both lavender genes but won't express either one because they are not compatible the same way that the amel gene is. Again, I am not sure that this is the case, but all the info I have seen indicates that it is. Sorry for being confusing in my earlier post. mary v. |
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Post by vanderkm on Apr 9, 2006 12:29:10 GMT -5
Wow - I got so distracted by the horse discussion that I missed the whole second page of this before I typed my response above and see that Shawn has already explained what I said. I must add that it is really hard to find info on the various genes in cal kings, much harder than in corns, and I am not speaking from personal breeding experience, but from what I have learned from others - so it could be wrong!!
Kaley - I use compatible to mean that they are the same genetic site, so that when amelanistic in one species is bred to amelanistic in another species they produce amelanistics. Those that are not compatible would produce normals het for both alleles.
hope that doesn't make it all less clear!
mary v.
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Post by Ryan Wunsch on Apr 9, 2006 12:46:17 GMT -5
Yeah, the second page feature at the bottom left corner is pretty small and easy to miss. I tried to find a setting that would let us see more replies per thread, but so far no luck.
Kingsnakes are one snake that I don't really follow the morphs of. I googled the lavender albino thing but I didn't find the answer to my question.
What is lavender albino in kings? Is it a different T strain of albino that is not compatable with normal albino's?
And Kaley, I've always used the word "compatable", what is correct term that they use in school for what we are calling "compatable".
Just for interests sakes, in boa constrictors there are a few strains of albino, the most popular, Kahl and Sharpe look very similar, but started with different wild caught animals and the strains are not "compatable".
Here is another question. For cases such as this, where the product of the crosses are double hets, has anyone produced a double homozygous albino, and if so, does it look wildly different than either of the strains?
Besides the albino corns and albino kings being compatable, does anyone know of other instances where traits are compatable by species like that?
One time I breifly considered crossing an albino bullsnake with an albino sonoran gophersnake, to see if they were compatable. If they weren't, I would have kept the babies to make F2's to see if 3 different albino phenotypes were produced.
Ryan
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Post by kaley on Apr 9, 2006 14:23:23 GMT -5
Kaley - I use compatible to mean that they are the same genetic site, so that when amelanistic in one species is bred to amelanistic in another species they produce amelanistics. Those that are not compatible would produce normals het for both alleles. mary v. That helps! I get it now! Thanks! Kaley |
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Post by kaley on Apr 9, 2006 14:44:39 GMT -5
And Kaley, I've always used the word "compatable", what is correct term that they use in school for what we are calling "compatable". Ryan I'm not really sure! I would think that what's happening is that you are seeing phenotypically similar traits (but maybe not actually identical!) that are being caused by different alleles of the same gene...or maybe they are caused by different genes altogether in the various species (I find that doubtful...but who knows!)...So if you don't get two copies of the same allele, then you don't get the desired trait, and your traits are not compatible... I guess where I get confused is that I'm used to dealing with color genetics where traits have all been assigned letters - "E" for black and "e" for red in dogs & horses & cattle etc, B for black and b's for the different mutations for brown in dogs, etc. So when I'm trying to understand the traits in snakes and everyone just uses the names of the colours, I get confused as it's not so obvious what's going on... And also, I've noticed that "you guys" tend to use the word "gene" when I think that what you're really talking about are alleles of genes...so that adds to my confusion a bit...See, I'm not so smart after all... Anyways, maybe a good project for some ambitious person with too much time on their hands would be to sit down with all the colours and patterns in snakes, and decide what traits are likely caused by different alleles of the same gene, and which ones are actually caused by different genes, and set up some kind of system for naming them that's similar to what's used in the rest of the colour genetics world...Just to standardize things a bit...You'd need some pretty extensive pedigrees/breeding records to pull that off, though...but it might be fun! Besides the albino corns and albino kings being compatable, does anyone know of other instances where traits are compatable by species like that? Ryan I can't even think of any other instance of people doing any kind of cross-species colour work at all!! Maybe it's been done with "Ligers" or something, but I have no idea! Maybe fish people do similar stuff, but I know ABSOLUTELY nothing about colour in fish...although there is a pile of research around about it, because they often use zebra fish in melanocyte research - I'd be surprised if there was anything like the number of colours/patterns that there are in snakes...But like I said, I really don't know much about it! Kaley |
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Post by Ryan Wunsch on Apr 9, 2006 16:44:19 GMT -5
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Post by gonesnakee on Apr 11, 2006 2:09:16 GMT -5
All this talk of horses & genetics is too crazy for me, but I can offer a related tidbit. If you breed a Lavender Albino CK to an Albino CK you will get no albinos. All the offspring will come out looking like Hypos & will be double hets for both strains of Albinoism. So when an Amel corn is bred to a lavender Albino CK the Junglecorns would be double hets for both strains also. I tried this little experiment, but my Lavenders kept trying to kill & eat the corns despite various methods & combos of snakes tried, from horny to hungry in seconds. Mark
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Post by Shawn(snakebite) on May 25, 2006 21:59:39 GMT -5
:)Well,..on May 14/06 .the female king layed her clutch of 20 eggs.I knew 3 from right when layed were no good and chucked them and the rest of the clutch was questionable, so I've been incubating them.As time went eggs kept deteriating and I am now down to 2 eggs left and I think we all know the truth on them , but I don't throw them out till totally sure they are no good.I knew from begining these eggs were'nt great and sure enough they aren't......BUMMER  . I was really looking forward to this pairing, but the fertility between the two just wasn't there, I guess.That male corn is an oldie too so , who knows , maybe hes the problem....Oh well , I have other jungles comin and shes got another chance here in her second clutch for somethin, so we'll see?  ... and maybe just one egg will come through in this crappy clutch..........ha , ..never know... |
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(joking) 
. I was really looking forward to this pairing, but the fertility between the two just wasn't there, I guess.That male corn is an oldie too so , who knows , maybe hes the problem....Oh well , I have other jungles comin and shes got another chance here in her second clutch for somethin, so we'll see?