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Post by studentfrombc on Nov 16, 2006 15:47:14 GMT -5
Okay, here I go with a lot of questions. Hopefully not all of them are dumb.
1. Can any colubrid be bred to any other colubrid? I've heard of Rat Snakes being bred to Corn snakes and Milks to Kings and so on. So what are the limits of interspecies breeding? Like can I breed a Black Pine to a GBK? And if I could, what would I get?
2. I have 3 GBK's. Two brothers and an unrelated female. What would happen if the female was related? I know that often snakes with very specific and rare genetics are bred together to enhance that trait, much like dogs were to get specific breed traits. Now we see problems with dogs (hip dysplasia, etc). Are we on the same road with breeding snakes to get certain genetic traits?
3. How do you actually know what you will end up with for any given pairing of snakes. ie I have a snow corn and a motley snow corn. I expect to get 100% snows from it (% motley who knows?) But what about things like my Anery and my Amel breeding together? Is there a good book to learn about this type of thing? And that doesn't even bring out the more obviously weird colourations like butter corns and so on. Does everyone on the board know this because they figure it out, or is it just experience that lets you know what a pairing will give?
Thanks in advance for your help.
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Post by kaley on Nov 16, 2006 16:22:48 GMT -5
These aren't dumb questions at all!! I'm hardly an expert, but I'll take a stab at it, just because I'm here...  1. I really don't know...but it's an interesting question. The whole interbreeding reptile species has always kinda thrown me - because part of the definition of a "species" used to be (maybe still is?) that it wouldn't breed with anything else. Generally, I would think that you'd have highest likelyhood of sucess with more closely related species...Your rat and corn snake example works becaue black, grey, yellow etc. rats and corns are all in the Elaphe genus...similarily, milks and kings are Lampropeltus...but jungle corns are corn X kings so the inter genus rule doesn't even hold...but closer would definetly be better...but I don't know if anyone has actually tested what the limits really are... Of course, this raises question of why you'd want to make hybrids, but that is a whole different can of worms! 2. People don't tend to worry (at least in my experience!) about inbreeding in reptiles as much as in mammals...Although, personally, I think we should worry about it more!! Inbreeding depression certainly can occur in snakes - it will occur in just about anything with enough inbreeding!! I would expect to see deformities, decreased reproductive success, and maybe even decreased immunity in highly inbred reptile - but I don't know if this actually happens or not in the real world - or maybe people just don't talk about it if it does. My understanding, back when we used to breed, was that people tended to not see significant impairments until 7 generations of inbreeding (someone correct me!!). Genetically speaking, more variety is generally better, and you loose variety with inbreeding...BUT - inbreeding is pretty much required to fix a rare trait into a population...SO, if you are prepared to cull heavily - that is remove any defective animals from the gene pool - inbreeding itself may not be so bad if you're carefull...But like I said, I think that herpers in general should worry more about inbreeding than they do...So, specifically to address your situation - If your female was related to your males - and you bred them, chances are everything would be fine, BUT, if their parents and grandparents had also been say siblings - I would expect trouble to start popping up... 3. this kinda came up a while ago...and a few good links were posted...and Mary is very good at this off the top of her head... People have had to figure of the inheritance of different colours/patterns just by observing the progeny - essentially experience! But, the folks that have been doing it for a long time HAVE written it all down, so everyone doesn't have to do all the breedings to find out for themselves - thank goodness!! Its gets, really, really complicated, as the different patterns and colours are controlled by a lot of different genes, and all the interactions etc. gets pretty wild!! Hopefully this helps a little...at least in the mean time until the more experienced folks step in!! |
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Post by Shawn(snakebite) on Nov 16, 2006 21:08:33 GMT -5
GBK?(grey banded kingsnake, I assume.I have never heard of a pine bred to a king , I feel it's unlikely that they would even make the attempt.And if so I'm sure all the eggs would be infertile.Rats to corns are popular and kigs to corns as well as gopher snakes to corns.Milks and kings too.
A good site to look up genetics is Serpwidgets.Google it.
In the case of anery being bred to an amel.Basically anery and amel are needed to make a snow corn.Both are recessive traits and they would have to be in a homozygous pairing for them to produce snow.Say one snake was anery then the other was amel.The amel would have to be het for anery and the anery would have to be het for amel in order to get any snows.Het means that it is caring a hidden trait.It is not shown in the phenotype of the animal but is hidden. It is best to resarch this a bit on your own , for it is alot of explaining and such.Get yourself familiar with the terms such as anery and amel , het double het.Once a person has somewhat of an idea on the matter it is easier to explain., plus it's a lot to type too.
In the case of your motleys your other snake that isn't showing the motley pattern would have to be het for motley in order to produce motleys.
I hope this helps a bit , but I would get your self familiar with the basics.On serpwidgets you can also obtain Charles Pritzels morph guide and in it ., it explains the genetic stuff well.
Mary is a great person to explain these issues as well and she has sure helped me with the more complicated stuff , especially when you get into dealing with snakes that are triple het and such.It does help to know the basics though , such as what traits are recessive and dominant and all that.My problem was figuring out the genetic outcomes on a grid or punnet square , and she clarified that for me.Once you know the rules and are well practiced with the grids and such , you can figure out any outcome from any pairing.There are genetic calculators that can be of help , but I definately suggest in learning how to do it totally yourself first.It will make you have a better understanding of it all.
Best of luck and if you ever need any more indepth info , I will do my best to try and help you, along with the other members.
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Post by kaley on Nov 17, 2006 10:51:44 GMT -5
Het means that it is caring a hidden trait.It is not shown in the phenotype of the animal but is hidden. Not quite...Het (heterozygous) means that the animal carries two different alleles at the specific gene you're refering to...for hypothetic "gene A" it would mean a het animal would have the genotype Aa as opposed to the homozygotes which would be AA or aa... Hets are also not always "hidden"...that's only true for a RECESSIVE phenotype. Example: we'll say for our gene A, aa is the recessive trait we're after, A het (Aa) would be "hidden" ie, shown the dominant phenotype... But if your talking about the DOMINANT trait the het (Aa) isn't "hiding"....you just can't tell (without breeding tests) wether the animal is Aa or AA... Kaley |
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Post by Shawn(snakebite) on Nov 17, 2006 19:21:57 GMT -5
Yes Kaley, the trait is not"hidden" in proper terms its just not shown due to the dominant trait that overrides a recessive one.I was talking in terms of recessive traits.
Het or heterozygous-- Unalike alleles at a locus.
In a sense I say the recessive trait or the trait not shown is "hiding" because the truth of the matter is that it is masked by the dominant gene which in fact could be said to be "hiding' unless it is paired with an alike allele, where then it would be shown(coming out of hiding" ;)It is an easy reference when explaining genetics to best be understood , and true it is not the most accurate of words, but it is easier to understand.
How are hets not hidden?A snake het for something means it is not shown in the phenotype.It's either shown in the phenotype or it's not , therefore making it het for another trait.
If a trait not shown in the phenotype isn't hiding then what is the word you'd use to describe what it is doing?It's a hidden trait until it is paired up with the same making it homozygous .
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Post by kaley on Nov 17, 2006 20:40:35 GMT -5
Shawn - nothing you have said is totally wrong, but it's not totally right either...
But I really don't want to start a big genetic terminolgy and semantics argument with you...So I'm not going to pick apart every sentence looking for technicalities...
I just prefer people to be as accurate and correct as possible - it really does save confusion in the end...
If you really want to know, the correct term for what you are calling "hidden" is "expressed"...as in the snake is or is not expressing a particular phenotype...
But this really isn't adding to the answers to any of studentfrombc's questions, is it??
Kaley
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Post by Shawn(snakebite) on Nov 17, 2006 21:23:42 GMT -5
I don't think I've said anything wrong , I just haven't used the "appropriate or approved words".Like I guess the word"shown" does not mean "expressed" and that "hidden" doesn't mean "not expressed".Shown or expressd and hidden and not expressed , I think for the most part clearly define what we are trying to get across. But you are right, it's a terminology thing and there are many ways of interpreting it with the use of different words. Also , you can't call something het if it is "expressing " ttthe trait in it's phenotype.Something is either het or not for a specific trait.I think you are confusing the word het for morphs or traits or specific phenotypes.Example, if recessive genes for anery ,amel, and say hypomelenism are all paired up then the snake would have all these genes within it making it het for none but homozygous for all three traits.All would play a part in determining the snakes phenotype. When you call a snake het for a specific trait it means they cary a gene that is not expressed(hidden) in it's phenotype.Say normal het for amel.They have a gene for it but it has to be paired up for it to be "expressed". "I just prefer people to be as accurate and correct as possible"" Yeah me too!!!  Thank you for the correction on my terminology of genetics.I will now use "expressed" to cease all the confusion ....ha... shown and expressed...wew!What was I thinkin. Wow It's about time we had some stimulating convo on this forum.Seriously , I welcome the criticism .Theres nothing wrong with a little heated debate. ;D Peace!! |
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Post by kaley on Nov 17, 2006 22:29:31 GMT -5
Something is either het or not for a specific trait.I think you are confusing the word het for morphs or traits or specific phenotypes. Nope...I very clearly know the difference Have I mentioned (recently) that I'm a graduate student in genetics?  I'm not trying to be an ass, for the record! I was just trying to get you to use the right terminology....when you write it out in full, you are right...you know what you're talking about...but when you don't write it out all the way, you leave out important bits which make your statements not quite right ... Right - the problem with what you were doing before is that you were leaving out the "het for" part - and that's the important bit!! - defines what trait exactly you are talking about... No problem! ;D:P Gotta agree with you there!! It has been a little dull around here lately... ;D |
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Post by Shawn(snakebite) on Nov 17, 2006 22:49:29 GMT -5
;DHa ha !!! no worries, it is good to have someone to debate with., this forum does need to have alittle somethin in it for excitement. I have to admit when I first replied to this thread I didn't want to get into every little aspect and definition of evry little concept , that is why I said originally to studentfrombc to research alittle and get yourself familiar with the terms and just what traiyts are dominant and recessive and such.I kinda just whisped through an explanation , very vague and incomplete .Plus anyone with the idea of genetics would pretty much know what I was saying.I should of broke it right down I guess, and explained it from scratch . I still don't know what you are saying when you say "hets are not always hidden"  ? I think you need to replace the word hets for a different one in this particular sentence.Sorry for the quote thing , I don't know how to do it like you do.It is in your second post. CONGRATS on the genetics degree!!! ;D ;D ;D Thats awesome, truly!!You bring some good knowledge and info to this forum , no doubt... Maybe our little debate will bring some old herpers out of their hibernation and we will get some more criticism and probably some more disa greement too....hahahahahaha!!!! Lets hope !! Congrats again!! |
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Post by vanderkm on Nov 19, 2006 12:50:12 GMT -5
Great discussion and not a huge amount I can add to it at this point other than to offer to help out with corn breeding plans - most of the common mutations are well established as single gene recessives and it is fairly easy to make predictions of offspring based on what is known about the parents. It is a lot of fun too!!
Once I get a chance to take some photos I will be posting the upcoming planned breedings I have for this year and we can make some comparisons!
mary v.
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Post by studentfrombc on Nov 21, 2006 14:33:50 GMT -5
Wow, nice to see all the replies. I understand what is being said. I also have a biology background, although my background in genetics hasn't gone much past 2nd yr university before I ended up specializing in more health care related fields. I guess I will have to think of the specific questions for breeding when the need arises.
I don't have plans on interbreeding a GBK with a hognose or a balck pine. But I was wondering if it was possible. I thik the definition of a species is not interbreeding and getting viable young in the wild. We are creating an artificial environment for breeding so we are getting viable hybrids. Any feedback on definition of species? Maybe I should split this off onto a new thread.
I understand the genotyping ideas (AA, Aa, aa) and all that. I guess I have a bigger question of how do you know which are dominant, which are recessive, and which are Co-dominant (BB, etc). I remember getting a question in Biology class about horse colouring with co-dominant genes for colour. Does it exist in snakes? Wouldn't it automatically exist in any hybrid snake? Isn't a jungle corn a co-dominant colouration phenotype?
Like I know that a genotype Aa will appear (look like) the same as a genotype AA. There is no way to know the difference without actual genetic testing. Or statistical analysis of parents/siblings/future offspring, which may allow some degree of error. But how will I know what I'll get if I mix a Aa with a Bb. (Bb being a different gene for a similar trait, like colour or pattern).
What would a AB, Ab, aB, ab look like? Does it even happen in snakes?
Just trying to continue the discussion, without getting too deep.
Oh yeah, GBK is grey banded king.
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Post by kaley on Nov 21, 2006 16:17:56 GMT -5
We are creating an artificial environment for breeding so we are getting viable hybrids. Any feedback on definition of species? Maybe I should split this off onto a new thread. My personal opinion - as it pertains to snakes - is that the viable hybrids aren't so much a result of the artificial environment (I think there are some "naturally occuring" hybrids...)...More just that the physiological difference between snake species is not that big - at least in the reproductive end of thins - that the differences that make a mule sterile just aren't there for snakes, and therefore maybe (maybe!!) the classic definition just doesn't apply...Maybe species definitions are based on some other distinguishing feature... You can tell by breedings... if you breed trait X to trait Y, and you get all offspring of trait X, X is dominant...if you get Y, Y is dom...if you get trait Z you have additive/codominant or incomplete dominant traits... edit: I guess I should say something else: some genes simply mask the effects of others - this is called epistasis, and isn't really just straight dominant/recessive...Example, In cats, solid white masks everything else...so i suppose you could just say that white is dominant, but technically you'd say that white is epistatic...just to be technically correct... Yes - co-dom traits exist in snakes...Unfortunately I haven't sat down and learned all of the genes/allele and combinations responsible for all the different traits, so I can't give an example for colubrids off of the top of my head, but according to Ryan Wunsch a lot of the boa & python morphs are co-dom...Not sure if it co-dom would neccessarily be automatic in hybrids...Apparently snake people talk about traits being "compatible" between species (I'm stealing all of this from the Jungle corns in the making thread!!) Mary says that regular albino from Cal. Kings and corn Amel are compatible, and you get albino babies, but that lavendar in king and lavendar in corns aren't compatible and you get regular babies...maybe this is more what you had in mind, rather than co-dom?... You figure it out by doing test matings essentially...and yes, it does happen in snakes, but again I can't give a colubrid example off the top of my head...Where's MARY??? Right on!! A lot of this stuff is kinda covered in the Jungle corn thread, and the corn snake colour genetics thread...and others... One good website that I found for corn snake colour genetics (and genetics principas and terminology in general!!) is www.vmsherp.com/LCCornNames.htm ....The link that Shawn posted earlier is a good place to start too... Have FUN!! And, as a couple people have mentioned already, Mary is fantastic at this stuff - the actual bred A to B stuff....so hopefully she pipes up! I just do theory ;D!! Kaley |
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Post by Shawn(snakebite) on Nov 21, 2006 22:06:39 GMT -5
I am going to stay out of this one , but for the most part..REASEARCH...Most of the genetic traits are already proven as to wether what is dominant and recessive.The majority of them have been tested and other people have determined wether what traits are dominant ,recessive,or co dom.There is no point in test breeding what would happen with 2 particular traits , meaning which one os dominant ,or recessive, because they have been determined already, for the most part.You basically have to just look it up and study to know the answer.
My question is what are you using A,Aa for?(I mean what genetic trait?..Ex. Amelanistic?)And what about B,Bb??I know people just you any letter sometimes to symbolize a specific trait , so just wanderin if you could give a specific genetic trait for the letters , before we go on.
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Post by kaley on Nov 22, 2006 9:42:25 GMT -5
I am There is no point in test breeding what would happen with 2 particular traits , meaning which one os dominant ,or recessive, because they have been determined already, for the most part.You basically have to just look it up and study to know the answer. pretty sure he was just asking how it was done, not implying that he wanted to do it... Again, pretty sure that's just hypothetical...Random trait A and Random trait B and how would you tell what the offspring would be... Just my interpretation... Kaley |
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Post by vanderkm on Nov 22, 2006 13:51:44 GMT -5
I am only able to get to computer on a limited basis these days but will be happy to comment in addition to what has been said already. The definition of species depends on more than not interbreeding to produce viable offspring in the wild - there are many more criteria - as many of what are designated as species will hypbridize in the wild as well as in captivity. Many of the hybrids produced in captivity do require considerable manipulation to induce breeding though - but offspring are often fertile - does seem that there are not the same degree of genetic differences between some reptiles, even at the genus level - so fertility is not uncommon in hybrids. In terms of colubrid genetics - again it is worth doing some reading at the suggested sites. The best site in my opinion is cornguide.com/. There is an accurate outline of cornsnake genes and relationships that is as up to date as any. There are currently over 70 morphs of corns - many that combine the effects of multiple single gene recessives. The patterns of inheritance have been worked out through breeding trials - when a new trait shows up the animals are bred to those with known genetic makeup and it is determined whether it is a new mutation or not. The mechanism of inheritance is established, often by several breeders working together - this was especially the case in the latest work with the ultra hypo gene that has been established as an allele of amelanistic - that gives a different expression when ultra and amel are both present at that locus, compared with 2 versions of ultra or 2 amel. Again, I suggest you check out the site above for more details. With respect to other species apart from corns - there is a moderate amount out there about some kingsnake species, but not nearly as clear in how the relationships work. I don't deal with these to a great extent, nor with boas, so cannot comment on the specifics, but there certainly are co-dominant genes in several species. Should also mention that there are several computer calculators available for genetic prediction - if you know the morphs of the parents and some of the genetic background you can run predictions of what the proportion of progeny will be in breedings - makes it fun to work out the possiblities. I will be happy to answer specific questions if I can, mary v. |
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Post by studentfrombc on Nov 22, 2006 13:53:27 GMT -5
I am just using Aa, and Bb to be random traits, since usually the theory behind genotyping isn't trait specific. I would like to know the genotyping of my snakes so I could have something to work with. I will look at the websites recommended and see what I can figure out, and then I will present my findings for feedback. I guess the biggest problem is that I don't know how each trait is expressed and so I don't know what mixture of genes(dominant /recessive /mix of genes) will give me what. I need to do some research on this. I can use my corns as an example. I have: Male Motley Snow Female Snow Male Amel Female Anary So which genes give Anary, which give Amel, what makes a Snow, and what makes a motley? Isn't Anary homozygous recessive for one thing, Amel homozygous recessive for another, and snow a heterozygous mixture of two different recessive genes? And what about motley? Isn't it a mixture of a lot of different genes? And what would happen if I cross-bred a GBK with a Snow or another corn? Would you get a GBK with decreased colouration? I'm not sure if it has ever been done. Wow, that is a lot of "What if's" Maybe I'll wait a few years, do some research and give it a go. Maybe I'll make the first corn/gbk hybrid that looks totally cool, is a good feeder, and is worth millions. Then again, maybe not.  |
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Post by kaley on Nov 22, 2006 14:29:15 GMT -5
I guess the biggest problem is that I don't know how each trait is expressed and so I don't know what mixture of genes(dominant /recessive /mix of genes) will give me what. I need to do some research on this. I can use my corns as an example. I have: Male Motley Snow Female Snow Male Amel Female Anary So which genes give Anary, which give Amel, what makes a Snow, and what makes a motley? Isn't Anary homozygous recessive for one thing, Amel homozygous recessive for another, and snow a heterozygous mixture of two different recessive genes? And what about motley? Isn't it a mixture of a lot of different genes? Alright...I'm bored...and this has piqued my interest...So I checked for you! (I'm a big geek, and this is fun for me....) So, what I've done is looked up all those guys you listed above...We are dealing with 3 separate genes in this example - Motley (M & m here 'cause I can't do superscripts!), Amel (one of the albino alleles - Normal A, albino a), and Anery (An & an...) I'll list each snake's genotype at ALL 3 genes... (X_ means that you can't tell what the second allele is - could be XX or Xx - you should be able to tell a bit better if you know what their parents were) Motely Snow: mm, aa, anan Snow: M_, aa, anan Amel: M_, aa, An_ Anery: M_, A_, anan So yes - Anery and Amel are separate things, and snows are just HOMOZYGOUS for both Motely seems to be a single gene trait... I trust you remeber how to do Punnet square to figure out your offspring from here? you'd have to know the genotype of the GBK...I have NO idea what you'd get!! But you'd only get anery or amel type colouration in a few of the offspring if the GBK was het for a "compatible" anery or amel... Who knows?? Maybe you'll be a millionaire! ;D Hope this helps! Kaley |
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Post by vanderkm on Nov 22, 2006 16:10:28 GMT -5
Like Kaley says - motley is a recessive gene for abnormal pattern - where the saddles are connected together and the belly pattern is plain white. It is recessive to normal but appears to be dominant to striped which is located at the same gene site. A motley patterned snake is homozygous motley - for the most part the genes are just referred to by their pattern or color name, though some people use abbreviations for working with the squares. Your snakes with normal patterns (saddles) are possible hets but motley is not that common in the corn population yet, so it is rather unlikely that the normal patterned snakes will carry it.
The snows are homozygous recessive at both the anery and amel locations, the motley snow is homozygous recessive at three locations - expressing all three recessives so no hidden genes for those loci. Amel and anery are both very common in corns so it is highly likely that your amel is het for anery, and/or the anery could be het for amel.
Breeding snow to snow will give all snows - if you breed the snow motley to a snow you will get snows all het for motley but showing normal saddle pattern. If the snow carries motley you will get half snows and half snow motley pattern.
Breeding the amel to a snow will give all amels that are het for anery. If the amel is het for anery, you will get half snows and half amels het for anery.
Breeding the anery to a snow will give all anery that are het for amel. If the anery is het for amel, you will get half snows and half anery that are het for amel.
Breeding the amel to an anery will give all normals that are het for both amel and anery, if neither snake is het for the other gene (the amel not het anery and the anery not het amel). If the amel is het anery, breeding it to an anery will give normals and anerys.
If the amel is not het anery, but the anery is het amel, breeding them will give normals and amels.
If the amel is het anery and the anery is het amel, breeding them will give normals, amel, anery and snows.
The amel gene in corns seems to match up with an amelanistic site in many other species of kings and milks - for example in cal kings, there is a compatible amel gene - so breeding an amel corn to a normal cal king gives you jungle corns het for amel, and breeding those to each other will give amel jungles. This amel seems to be the same as that in honduran milks, and likely the same as that in Ruthvens, which have been bred into grey bands to produce the current amelanistic grey bands. As far as I know there is no amel or anery that naturally occurs in GBKs.
I suspect putting an amel corn with a grey band king would produce normal patterned hybrids (likely bigger than a grey band but smaller than a corn with narrow saddles, and color very similar to a wild type corn) that would then produce normals and albinos in 3:1 ratio when bred together for an F2 generation. I would be suprised if corn/GBK have not been done already - there has been so much hybridization with corns and various king and ratsnake species.
mary v.
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Post by Ryan Wunsch on Nov 22, 2006 20:23:31 GMT -5
Wow, great to see so much time going into sharing, teaching and learning - way to go guys!
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Post by studentfrombc on Nov 28, 2006 14:05:22 GMT -5
Wow, that was a great reply. I guess I know what to expect from all the numerous breeding combinations I have. Thanks Mary, et al. Weird to think that I could take my anery and my amel and breed them together and I would get a regular wild colouration (assuming neither is het for the others trait). To think that a pink and white snake bred to a grey and white snake will give the wild type colouration  . I'll have to go back to the breeders and see if any of my snakes are het or possible het for other genes. So it also looks like the motley snow male I got is probably the best snake I can use for breeding, being recessive for 3 cool genes. Cool that I got him for $30 because he was a left over from a clutch and I wanted to make sure I got the most bang for my shipping buck. I need to start a database on everything I know about each individual snake, and include all my feeding/shedding/etc data. Would be a lot of fun to compile all this stuff. |
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Post by vanderkm on Nov 29, 2006 14:17:50 GMT -5
The breeding combinations are such fun to work out - and even better when you have the clutch hatching - all the different noses peeking out.
A database is a great idea - we use excel for routine events and have the spreadsheets linked together in access for reporting - fun stuff and really essential for having ongoing records - cannot rely on memory when you get to be my age!
mary v
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Post by atlantida on Aug 6, 2007 20:11:18 GMT -5
Very informative!!!!
Does gender have any influence over dominant genes in snakes?
For example: a male amel bred to a female anery=Ab, and a male anery bred to a female amel=Ba
Would both outcomes be the same with both pairs being homozygous, or would gender influence the outcome? Would the parents need to be recessive to achieve snow?
Sorry if there is a painfully obvious answer, but the genetic specifications hurts my brain!!!
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Post by vanderkm on Aug 9, 2007 14:12:10 GMT -5
There are some suggestions that gender may influence the appearance of various genetic combinations - ghosts, lavender and some others tend to show more pink in the males than females. There are no instances that I can think of in colubrids where gender makes a difference in how color genes are passed on. There have been suggestions that a pattern mutation (bloodred) may also show more visibly in males, but again no sex linked traits that I know of.
With the example you give - male amel to female anery or the other way around - both would give you normal babies het for both genes. These animals that are het for both genes would produce snows when bred together. Because anery and amel are so common in corns, it is likley that most corns carry them and so the snows tend to show up quite often.
mary v.
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I'm not trying to be an ass, for the record! 
? I think you need to replace the word hets for a different one in this particular sentence.Sorry for the quote thing , I don't know how to do it like you do.It is in your second post.
. I'll have to go back to the breeders and see if any of my snakes are het or possible het for other genes.